Remember: You don’t have to show ID to police in New York State.
November 18th, 2008 at 10:50 pm
I was inline skating in Port Dickinson, New York, when a police officer “pulled me over.” He claimed I had shouted something and told me that inline skating was prohibited by a village ordinance.
I have since placed an inquiry with the village code officer and learned that there is no such ordinance.
The officer asked for ID, and I refused to show it to him. He then called for backup, and… well, just watch the video:
http://www.vimeo.com/2230232Notable exchanges:
- At the very beginning, before the video, the officer says he can detain someone for any reason he wants.
- The officer claims that recording him is against the law – an utter lie obviously intended to inhibit my 1st amendment right to conduct journalism.
- The Deputy, Julie, repeatedly berates the idea that the USA is a “Free Country” (even calls it a joke!)
- Julie also asks me who I’m voting for! (I was / am a Ron Paul supporter, by the way
) - The other deputy, Rich, tells me to leave the country even though I’m espousing the liberties ensured by the Constitution.
- Perhaps most importantly, the officer continues to offer the imaginary local statute as his only pretext to demand identification and to detain me.
- Although I repeatedly tried to calm the officer down by telling him he was nice and polite, he really was not. Especially toward the end, he continually invaded my personal space (coming less than 1 foot from me). I was mostly very confident, but I was cold-ass-nervous when he got up in my face, I’m not gonna lie.
- Anything else you all notice?
Hey Justin i just want to thank you for that video on those ignorant Port Dick pigs……i had to grow up with them, and never had the knowledge to do what you did and I’m glad there’s someone out there that will give it back to them, because frankly i’m sick of being pushed around by our governments own agents. I really wish he had charged you on that foney ordinance too!!! HAHA!
Posted by Keith Arnold on November 19th, 2008.
Haha thanks Keith. I’m wary of using the term “pigs” to describe police officers as I don’t think the institution of local police is a good analog to the pigs in Animal Farm.
On the contrary, I think that police officers will prove to be a crucial ally in our generation’s fight to free ourselves from the straight jacket that the current power structure seeks to administer.
For example, see http://www.leap.cc
Posted by Justin on November 19th, 2008.
Justin,
Gotta say, you are doing amazing things up there _by_yourself_. There are more and more gathering the courage to do this on camera. It’s scary holding the line against what you _know_ is 100% of all the force behind every government dictate.
As I see it, you went out of your way to help these officers. Hopefully your efforts will help others do the same. These recorded exchanges are becoming quite common in NH, town by town the officers and city planners are hearing from their flocks not bleating but calm collected assertions of humanity.
Repeated in this video is the same formula:
Try the veiled threat of detention.
Try asserting there is a law, when there isn’t.
Offer to ‘make it go away’ if you cooperate.
Then, eventually, out comes aggressive machoism, character attacks, accusations of things you didn’t say. It’s amazing they let you keep the camera, we have too often seen them taken and then returned with the footage erased.
Last but not least, damnit, get your ass to NH where we can back you up.
Posted by Dan Garthwaite on November 19th, 2008.
Dan: thank you for the compliments!
For the record, I am far from by myself. There are a number of awesome activists staying vigilant in defense of liberty both in New Paltz and in Binghamton.
Recently, the SUNY Social Justice Conference was quite a bright light!
Posted by Justin on November 20th, 2008.
Right on bro,
Very niice to see brothers knowing their rights, and standing for what is right. You are the man…. man! lol
Please people, Know the laws, know your rights, and use them against those who abuse power if you have to. Its the only way you will free.
http://www.themagnificentdeception.com/
Thanks Justin, you rock, not enough ppl in this area with some cajones and brains enough to do what you did. Keep it up bro. Blessings
Andy
Posted by Andy on November 20th, 2008.
Good for you. You saved yourself jailtime by recording it. You might even have a lawsuit on your hands.
In Texas they will take you to jail if you dont present ID.
Posted by D on November 21st, 2008.
Oh come on I dont think the cops did anything wrong….
What if they did get his ID and found out that he was a wanted criminal or something…the cops seemed more then nice….picture if u were the cop and some kid was giving u a hard time for no absolute reason. Its like he just got out of a law class and was trying show off his knowledge or something.
This kid needs to find better things to do.
Posted by Mr.Guy on November 21st, 2008.
Mr.Guy,
the sad thing about your statement is… you actually feel that way. Just because you do not know the constitution, and these sorry excuses for cops do not know the constitution, dont get mad at a young brother because he DOES know it, and uses it to his fair advantage. The cop was not in the right here, sorry you cannot see that. You are just as laughable as these cops of you didnt find anything wrong with their words or actions. Sorry, but it is what it is. People controlling the “law”, when they really have no idea what the “law(s)” actually are.
You can live your life asleep, no one is stopping you.
but if you rubbed that sleep from your eyes, even for a minute…
you might just see things differently.
oh well, have a good night, a good sleep, a good day at work, back home, and have a good time doing it allll over again, day in and day out, never questioning that which should be questioned. You were given the ability to think for yourself, just because the powers that be would rather you not use it, does not mean that you still cannot.
sweet dreams.
Blessings
Posted by Andy on November 24th, 2008.
Thanks for this video post Justin…I as a police officer myself can sympathize with both you and the “law enforcement” officers. I agree with you that you have the right to challenge them and only give out so much information. I do not know the laws of NY, but in Ohio (just in-case you visit) there is a “Fail to Identify” law to-wit: you must TELL the officer your name, address, and DOB.
It was interesting that the PDPD officer did not cite you or arrest you for the said offense. I must believe you that there is no such ordinance, if there were he would have cited you, most likely (since you put them through all that dialog)…I know I would have. That being said, if I were to cite you I would need your information. If I could not “positively” ID you (picture) I could arrest you and fingerprint. If you also failed to disclose your personal info for the cite (name, address, DOB) I would then arrest you and charge you with “Obstructing Official Business.”
So…kudos to you for sticking to your “guns” and giving only the info. required in NY.
If you come to Ohio, we need to go out for coffee and discuss all this interesting “liberty” you talk about. Be safe
Posted by Corey on December 3rd, 2008.
Just to be clear: If any officer at any time tries to arrest me whilst refusing to name the specific statute under which I was being arrested, I will refuse to provide further information.
As for your Ohio law: What mixed messages the Supreme Court has sent us! The (relatively) recent decision in Hiibel v. Nevada makes clear that the national government will not protect citizens from state laws compelling identification in cases of ‘reasonable suspicion.’ We’re still left in doubt absent some kind of suspicion, however.
There are yet many questions left unanswered, and the one I think you are identifying is this: What if an officer *claims* to have reasonable suspicion, but doesn’t (either prima facie or) because, as in this case, the statute in question doesn’t exist?
As an activist-journalist, I would rather be arrested and find out the answers to these questions in court than go on my merry way. In this case, this officer chose not to arrest me, probably precisely because he knew he would be on the loosing side of the pursuant case.
It could have made some interesting caselaw, though!
P.S. – as a police officer, this may give you pause – I also had some marijuana in my pocket during this encounter. What were the 4th amendment implications if an arrest and search subject to arrest had ensued? Even Virginia v. Moore was not applicable here, so what of the exclusionary rule?
I still skate most every night, so perhaps we’ll find out yet.
Posted by Justin on December 4th, 2008.
justin this is great! and infuriating. you did a really good job keeping your cool.
Posted by Mari on December 13th, 2008.
[...] it means risking arrest (and to video-record the encounter in question and provide it to me so that my readers can enjoy and learn from it [...]
Posted by » An activist’s Christmas wish list | Justin Holmes.com on December 16th, 2008.
You have a valid point in your video here, but ultimately, you’re just coming across as a smug jerk which is probably why the cop took issue with your action in the first place. I also can’t shake the feeling that you staged this (in other words, that you did purposely antagonize the cop when he drove by) in order to specifically record this video. You’re trying to play the victim, when all I see is a cop trying to do his job and you intentionally interfering with that so you can make a political statement.
Posted by brathor on August 29th, 2009.
Good fucking job man!!!! You asserted yourself, but did so in a polite and respectful manner.
Because of that, you won!!!
Posted by Me on August 29th, 2009.
Something else quite interesting is the officer’s willingness to harass other citizens just to prove their point to you. The badge and gun do NOT amount to a license to do whatever police officers want, nor to harass whomever they choose. I would go to the clerk’s office (Village and County, just to be safe) request any and all information about skating, sidewalks, or roads and if you can’t find any prohibitive clauses, sue for harassment or at the very least file a complaint against the officer. Complaints make it to the officer’s file, though it’s basically a formal reprimand. Still might be worth a try though.
Posted by Old Scramch on August 30th, 2009.
Not familiar with NY law so I’m not sure about the skating thing and the cops could have handled it a lot better but dude. You were kind of a jackass about it. Even if you have a right not to divulge such info, what is it really going to hurt? In some quiet little village at one a.m., yeah I probably would have “pulled you over” as well. You can’t even begin to deny that that’s not a little suspicious, especially after how uncooperative you were. Not every police officer is a bad person. Yes, you get your jerk every once in a while who just wants to screw with you, but every profession has that. If you’d stop being such a paranoid smart ass and let them do their job you might see that. Chances are, they’ll let you do your thing.
Posted by allie on August 30th, 2009.
Allie, you use his behavior talking with the police as a reasonable excuse for his detainment by the police to begin with. He was detained because he was detained? This is known as circular logic.
Secondly, I wasn’t aware that any curfew was in effect in the area, limiting the travel of ordinary citizens. If so, this could be understandable. But it wasn’t. How is it suspicious (as in legally suspicious) to be rollerblading at night?
Why are you so willing to give up your privacy, to give up your rights? Liberty requires eternal vigilance. That NY law exists for a reason: situations where lawful citizens are being detained by the cops for no reason.
Posted by David on August 30th, 2009.
Just to respond to the last few comments:
*I did call the village code officer and ask if there were any village ordinances at all regarding inline skating on streets or sidewalks. He told me that there are not and that the only operative laws on the matter are New York’s Vehicle and Traffic laws, which require all users of the roadways to display bright or reflective material. I was wearing bright clothes, as I always do – nobody can claim I was violating the V&T law.
*I did not, as “brathor” suggests, “antagonize” this officer in any way. However, as a journalist, yes I am always ready to put myself in a situation where I will capture quality content regarding the state of civil liberties. Declining to display ID accomplished this, and also made me proud to live in a nation of laws that protect me.
*To “allie,” I tried my best to handle this in a calm and professional manner. If you have videos of similar encounters where you feel you did a better job, you are welcome to link to them in this space. Truthfully, I was pretty scared. I wasn’t about to tell him that, obviously, but he was being very intimidating and, as you can see, getting right up in my face. I don’t think I was being a “paranoid smart ass” but rather a conscientious village resident who happens to enjoy the freedoms I am granted under the governing documents of our nation. When did this become a bad thing?
Posted by Justin on August 30th, 2009.
Isn’t NY a stop-and-ID state? If they have criminal suspicion, they CAN ask for your ID.
Posted by Nate on August 30th, 2009.
No. No it is not. Of course you must prove that you are authorized to operate a motor vehicle or have access to a restricted area, etc. if you are doing those things, but NY is not a “stop-and-ID” state.
If my readers learn only one thing from this post, I hope that it is that YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO SHOW ID TO POLICE IN NEW YORK STATE.
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/CPL/H–PRELIMINARY/140/140.50
Posted by Justin on August 30th, 2009.
You know if you if this guy just showed his ID than it would have been much smoother. MOST police are good people, the just frustrated with people who talk down to them and act smart. This guy had all the right to do what he did, but acting like this makes police officers jobs so much harder. This guy is arrogant and in my opinion being rude to the police.
Posted by Tony on August 30th, 2009.
Dude, just show them your ID. It’s not a big deal. You sounds like a smart guy, but when you talk like this it makes you sound like a smart ass. But hey, I voted for Ron Paul too!
Posted by Mike on August 31st, 2009.
There are 2 things here…
#1 – As a pedestrian, you may or may not be carrying identification. There is no legal requirement in ANY state to cary identification 24-7-365.
#2 – You ALWAYS have the right to Exert your Miranda Rights. You may tell the officer, “If you have any further questions or actions from this point, you may contact my attorney” at which time you produce a card for which ever attorney that you work with, or any attorney at all. Then you may walk away.
Posted by Echo on August 31st, 2009.
Please, let’s keep the attempts at legal advice to a minimum here.
Echo, your concern #1 was glossed over and left unanswered in Hiibel v. Nevada, so for now, you are right.
As for your #2, you are not correct. Police in every state may detain you under certain circumstances, and you may not legally “walk away” as you put it. It so happens that in New York state, there are particular circumstances related to the various levels of infraction outlined in the penal code that correspond to an officer’s mandate to detain a citizen.
As I posted in my last comment, these are outlined in very plain English in the CPL, and in this particular case, the officer’s actions were not lawful pursuant to this section. Read it again here:
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/CPL/H–PRELIMINARY/140/140.50
Posted by Justin on August 31st, 2009.
If you are not a criminal, just give them your ID so they can be on their way. The police could have be out catching real criminals and/or keeping the rest of the village safe if it wasn’t for you standing there wasting their time and everyone else’s tax dollars. NY will soon be a stop-and-ID state because of people like you, so that law enforcement wastes less of their time. (Their time = our taxes) You contribute absolutely nothing useful to society other than ignorant views based on very little life experience. Our government, although not perfect, provides a great system to live and thrive compared with the rest of the world. Put the skates down, buy a plane ticket, and see for yourself. You probably already know this, and I am feeding your ego by wasting the time I spent to type this.
Posted by Ron on September 1st, 2009.
You may have a logical argument about civil rights, etc. But it’s just plain stupid and ignorant of you to not show Identification to the Officer in question. Show your ID, don’t answer his questions, and THEN give him an earful. You state you weren’t doing anything wrong so what are you afraid of? If an officer asks for Identification I think you should oblige. Good job on keeping your calm and standing up for your civil rights, but the whole encounter wouldn’t have escalated if you had just given him some ID. Comply with him and THEN make him feel stupid. You’re clearly in the right, but he’s just trying to do his job, and you obviously pushed some buttons.
Posted by Bob on September 1st, 2009.
I have a big problem with the argument “If you’re not a criminal, just show them, stop wasting their time/our tax dollars!”
The problem here is that YOU weren’t wasting anything, THEY were. You hadn’t committed a crime and they had no particular reason (that we know of) to think you had.
If when the first officer had talked to you he felt reason to believe you had, he could have (and I believe would have in a heartbeat) read you Miranda and brought you in for whatever + obstruction, etc. But he didn’t really think you had done anything wrong, he just wanted to bully you into backing down, and that’s not only a waste of everyone’s time and our tax dollars but it’s increasing the odds that a dangerous criminal could be threatening the village unchecked.
That’s not and never was a policeman’s “job.” They are not given authority for it’s own sake, they were given it “To serve and protect” the people.
The wonderful subversives that fled England and set up this crazy system did everything they could to make sure this sort of thing doesn’t happen, but every time someone decides to “just show him/her” and “not waste everyone’s time” by complying with unreasonable, unfounded requests, it makes it that much harder for the next person to resist, then the requests get worse.
This cop may request IDs all day long, and becose most people “just do it” Miles here gets harrassed for not doing something the laws of the state SPECIFICALLY protect him from having to do.
Per wikipedia:
Fourth Amendment – Protection from unreasonable search and seizure.
“The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.”
Secure in their persons and papers, sounds like ID to me.
Sorry I rambled, I guess this bugged me more than I realized!
Posted by J.D. on September 1st, 2009.
Brathor-
I’m assuming you’ve never met Justin. He carries that camera with him at all times. And that’s just the way he is. He’s not smug, he just knows his rights and refuses to allow them to be violated. I wish I had half the balls he does, because I’m not sure I could have stood up to them the way he did, no matter how much I wanted to. I also never saw him as a victim. He stood up to the officers, asserted his rights, and did something not many people would dare to do. If more people did what he does, maybe the police would start respecting the fact that a badge doesn’t give you free reign over everyone you come across. That cop wasn’t doing his job, he was just being nosy and trying to assert his authority over Justin.
Tony-
It’s not always about things going “smoother”, as I think was the point of the whole video. It’s about what’s right, what’s legal, and what your rights are. If you don’t know what they are, they could be abused much further than just asking for your ID when it’s not required. It shouldn’t be a bad thing to assert yourself to a member of law enforcement, if you feel you are being unjustly treated. Maybe he did do it just to prove a point (I have no idea, since I’m not Justin), but it’s a good point to prove. He was minding his own damn business, and that dude had no justification for demanding his identification, and the one he asserted turned out to be false. If he had been driving, or arrested for committing a crime, I would imagine he would have cooperated with the officer to the extent that he is required by law.
Ron-
It’s Port Dick! It’s not like they had a raging amount of criminals to find, if they were pulling over some dude on roller blades, and managed to call in 3-4 more cops to take care of him! They were wasting their own time, and deserved to feel frustrated. I love watching this video and laughing at the poor po-po, who never did get what they wanted.
JD- I agree with everything you said. Frustrates the shit out of me that it has to be this way. If you’re not doing anything wrong, you should not be harassed by the police, and in my opinion, that is exactly what happened here. He was rollerblading, the cop felt like fucking with him, got pissed that his intimidation tactics didn’t work, called for backup (wasting more time and tax dollars), and got super pissed when that didn’t work. Tough luck, guys, go find some crime to solve.
Justin-
Rock on with your bad self man. You do what most of us wish we could. I like to think I’d assert myself, but I get all chickenshit around a badge. You’re an example of what we should strive for, if we don’t want to see our rights taken away, one by one by one.
Posted by Lori on September 1st, 2009.
As former law enforcement I must agree with your right to protect your rights. The office was definitely wasting his time. Officers should never quote a non existing ordinance. He needs to have additional training!
Posted by CE Hurd on September 1st, 2009.
It doesn’t mean anything to have rights and personal freedoms if you don’t take measures to protect them. Those measures should be dictated by the situation. In this situation, this dude doesn’t appear to be doing anything wrong. The law enforcement agents requested information from him that he preferred not to give. No law compels him to comply with that directive. So, here we have an officer entrusted with enforcing the law and he’s attempting to enforce a law that doesn’t exist (or apply in this situation). Think about what that means – a man with a gun telling you to do something from behind the massive force of a public institution represented by his badge. It doesn’t matter how trivial you think the issue is or how fruitless you think the efforts this dude is making to resist, the bottom line is that this is fundamentally wrong. It’s a naked abuse of power on a very basic level.
If you say this dude is a jackass for pushing the issue, then you say that because you haven’t the fortitude to make this stand yourself.
Posted by Andrew on September 1st, 2009.
It seems to me that Justin is a pretty smart guy and he could tell that it would have been more time efficient and less stressful to just show the police his ID. He obviously prioritizes maintaining the free use of his rights over half an hour of frustration.
Posted by Andrew on September 1st, 2009.
sorry i should have been more clear the andrew directly above this post is a different andrew than the one above that. I apologize for any confusion.
Posted by Andrew on September 1st, 2009.
Justin,
You are the True Trooper in this video!!! Keep up the good work on defending our constitution!
Posted by Danielle on September 1st, 2009.
Is it just me or does Yew York State have a lot of new laws since the attack the towers? I have seen other videos like this one and none of the people get arrested.
“85% of convictions in Canada and America are from interviews from the guilty”. Youtube Don’t Talk to Cops Part 1.
I am sure if any of us had the money. We would sue them.
You did a good job man.
Posted by TRYER on September 1st, 2009.
I agree that the officer was wasting his time from the beginning by even starting this whole scenario with the big mouth rollerblading hippie. Obviously the officer is essentially an undertrained, overpaid “village” security guard. Both of you would not survive in any major metropolitan area.
Posted by Ron on September 1st, 2009.
Good job Justin! This video is a prime example of how things work when your face to face with police officers in NY state, or any other police department within our country. People who disagree with how you handled the situation have never had the balls to stand up for themselves, especially when they know they haven’t done anything wrong. And its all about fear: they are afraid that if they don’t do what they’re told (by a stranger wearing a uniform) that they will go to jail. Simple as that. Everyone fears the loss of freedom in any form. The police know this because they have the exact same fear of losing their freedom, so they use this “edge” on people, and then twist things around to you and other officers, and in their reports that you committed a crime and was a threat to them and/or the public. You wouldn’t believe the number of tickets I have received, in my younger years, because I wouldn’t produce ID, especially when I wasn’t doing anything wrong. I’ve even had police officers get physical, and I didn’t resist, and twist it all around that I attacked them so they could arrest me. It all boils down to this: abuse of power. Arresting you makes them feel like they won, no matter what… and it’s usually because they have a personal reason to do so, not a professional reason.
Posted by A. Johnny-john on September 2nd, 2009.
its people like you that make cops have to be harsh. i understand you may be anti-police officer because some do abuse their power and give a bad name to them as a whole. if they truly were being irrational then i would understand you being an ass to the officer and refusing to cooperate. but if you look at it from another point of view, the officer has no clue who you are or what you are doing skating in the middle of the road. i really dont understand why it was such a big deal just to give them your id, if youre not a wanted criminal. you could have been on your way in just a couple of minutes but instead you have to give them hell over it. police officers have very dangerous jobs and are not out there to harass people for living, but to keep people safe ( <–may sound cliched but its the truth and i feel it needs to be reiterated here). their jobs are also very stressful, in part because of people like you and your bull shit antics. i dont expect you to look at it the same way i do, but i want you to at least understand my point. that is, what officers do is for your safety and theirs. i believe i understand your point, i simply disagree. because you dont "have to" show them id then you shouldnt? i know it goes deeper into personal privacy and what not, but thats the gist of it. if you dont like police officers or the laws of your state or how this country is run, then do the rest of us and law enforcement a favor and get the fuck out. (perhaps to a middle eastern country where you won't have to worry about officers "harassing" you as you skate in the road at night)
Posted by i dont have to on September 2nd, 2009.
Great video Justin. You are a very knowledgeable guy. I really look up to what you did and how you handled yourself. I’m just glad he didn’t want to take your skates
Posted by Sanchez on September 2nd, 2009.
I grew up in Port Dickinson, and am currently a pretty hefty tax-payer adult citizen. There is a fiefdom going on here that adds administrative, “police protection” (although oftentimes it is just civil right restriction) cost and street maintenance duplication that is totally unnecessary. As more and more New Yorkers flee the sky high taxes and fees imposed here; eventually villages and towns will have to scale down and CONSOLIDATE. Port Dickinson police roam very few square miles, and don’t even have first call – the Sheriff does. Teens and kids in particular get unfairly scrutinized. How is a Sheriff car screaming down the street more safe than one person skating??? And how can this woman Sheriff scoff at our “free country”?? If she truly believes we are not a free country; she needs to turn in her badge immediately.
Posted by AuntRhonda on September 2nd, 2009.
This guy is a “Smart Ass”….The cops have a right to ask for”ID” ID of someone skating in the middle of the road at 1 am in the morning….These cops have amazing patience with this dude…He should have been arrested !! Total Asshole….
Posted by Jack on September 2nd, 2009.
I commend you for sticking to your guns. You remind me of a young Marc Emery, challenging the law for it’s own sake.
Random police encounters do serve to catch criminals. Timothy McVeigh was caught because of a random traffic stop, I honestly don’t believe stop and ID laws are a serious threat to our civil liberties.
I would like to see a society where cops stop and talk to people who are out late at night and COULD possibly be up to no good, but people who are out late at night doing nothing wrong don’t see that as a serious threat to civil liberties.
Posted by Boulder Internet Marketing on September 2nd, 2009.
Posted by i don’t have to: “if you dont like police officers or the laws of your state or how this country is run, then do the rest of us and law enforcement a favor and get the fuck out. (perhaps to a middle eastern country where you won’t have to worry about officers “harassing” you as you skate in the road at night)”
________________________________________________________
People like you are the problem with this country, not people like Justin. Your love of police officers and the government must extend to the military, yes? What the fuck do you think they’re fighting for? OUR FREEDOM. OUR RIGHTS. Which includes the right not to be harassed by the police when you haven’t done ANYTHING WRONG. Justin didn’t do anything wrong. Nothing. The cop lied about an existing statute, tried to intimidate him mentally and physically, and attempted to coerce him into giving up his rights. Justin, as is his right, stood up for himself. Why in the hell would anyone think it’s OK for a cop to act like that?
I don’t know why I’m bothering. It’s obvious from your comment that you didn’t read anyone else’s very logical comments that already explained to you why it was a good thing for Justin to do what he did. You’re just gut reacting with your severely limited mindset. You certainly showed your worldly perspective in the section of your comment that I reposted above.
Jack- Everything I just said to ‘i don’t have to’ above, goes for you too. He couldn’t be arrested, because HE WASN’T BREAKING ANY LAWS, and the entire point of this video/comment thread is that he did NOT have to show ID under those circumstances. Congrats on your fancy set of blinders.
For the record, I don’t hate cops or anything. I fear them, because they can arrest me for things that I don’t believe should be illegal. Some cops are good guys, I happen to know a few. But TOO MANY cops get into it for the wrong reason, which is to have power. Poor little whiny bitches in high school, who think a gun and a badge makes them special now. They like to push people around, and prove how super-tough they are. The officers in this video, were obviously of that type. That guy got right up in Justin’s face, and the woman was basically telling him that America isn’t free. I agree with AuntRhonda above, that woman should turn in her badge immediately if that’s what she believes, along with any other cop that feels that way.
Posted by Lori on September 2nd, 2009.
Justin – just watched this video with great interest. The link to wimp.com was posted on a forum with 50,000 members.
I think you held your own very well and I congratulate you on your persistence whilst maintaining a polite and respectful manner with the officers. I cannot help but wonder though, if the incident would have played out quite the same way without the electronic ‘witness’.
Posted by Just me on September 2nd, 2009.
man, i wish i could do something like that. You acted heroic in doing that and i have a lot of respect for you. You kept calm, demonstrated sound, powerful logic, and showed that you deserve rights that are granted to you. More people should take this view, but sadly, we do surrender our liberty for security. I will take this experience and see if i can gain the courage to respectfully stand up to an authority that is taking their power past what it rightfully is. Thank you.
Posted by tozie on September 2nd, 2009.
Came across your video on vimeo and when I saw your introduction to it, I was immediatly thinking “oh gawd, not another one of these types” (got one that causes trouble with the LEO’s just to cause problems running for mayor here). Even while watching it, I kept thinking about how your right to refuse ID ended once you were breaking a law. However, it seems that this is not the laws in NY. I know you apparantly were not breaking the law, but in the situation you had reason to beleive you did because the Officer had stated you had violated a statute and you had no reason not to beleive him (you admitted ignorance to the law). However, I did applaud you for refusing to back down, and standing your ground when these LEO’s were trying to intemidate you. Too many times we have given up our civil liberties for the simple excuse of “it would be easier if you had…”. Little by little we are having our liberties taken away. It has been a long time since I have gotten to stand up to those in authority when they were in the wrong, but I don’t miss any oppertunity to do so when it presents itself, of course, with no small cost to myself.
And for the record, when I used to live down by the river I would go roller blading at 1 AM, and down the middle of the street till I got to the trails. As it happens, I like the night better then the day.
Posted by Cory on September 3rd, 2009.
Winner.
What can I say that hasn’t been said?
You kids and ur crazy ideas about the constitution.
+1 to you. I think ima go eat a turkey sandwich now.
Posted by John Doe on September 3rd, 2009.
So, granted the police officer needs more training. It’s his job to request an ID and Justin’s right to refuse. The officer should try again, if he fails, go to plan B. Instead, they want to debate and ask him who he’s voting for? How does the seem appropriate or relevant.
Call in his info, try some other way (Barney, you get that through training) to establish his identify, see if any Justins have a warrant, establish probable cause if you can and go from there. If no probable cause exists, tell him to be careful, probably not a good idea to roller blade in the road at 1 am and be done. But, don’t make up some lame ass “ordinance” if none exists. Come on! Even the sheriff said it was LEGAL! Barney’s job is to know and enforce the law.
If you think he’s up to no good, keep an eye on him until you have probable cause or he goes home.
Normal (as defined by Barney Fife) doesn’t equal legal, that logic absolutely escapes me. And, the implications isn’t if you don’t love the country move to Canada, it’s if you don’t like what I’m doing, then somehow (again the logic escapes me) you don’t love this country so move to Canada. And, if you loved this country, you’d cooperate with me? Wow!
Justin, you handled it well, stood your ground and remained respectful. Knowing your rights and exercising them, IMHO, is demonstrating your love for this country. But, if you hadn’t recorded it, it likely would have turned out differently.
Posted by Russ on September 3rd, 2009.
What I take away from this more than anything else is the sad state of affairs of the people reporting in this blog. So many just want you to give up your ID so you can go on your way – the quick, happy, pre-packaged, fast food mentality that has become America.
Do not ever give up your ID or credentials or anything if it is not legally required. It is your American right and freedom to NOT do this.
So very few understand that it is this “who cares” attitude that will be the ruin of us all. The do not take away all of your freedoms at once, but slowly and steadily where you barely notice until you wake up one day and have none at all.
Ben
Posted by MrC on September 3rd, 2009.
Justin, you are a genius. And you had weed with you! You are cop bulletproof. Although you probably weren’t that high. I find it terribly hard to prove oneself right when one is trippin’ on hydro.
Btw, you mention being a journalist. Where do you think would be a good idea to study Journalism in the states or somewhere outside? Will continue tuning to your blog. You are an inspiration to us all. I AM NOT NORMAL EITHER! hahahaha
Posted by Patrick Cruz on September 3rd, 2009.
Hello Justin. Wow, this one is really difficult. I understand your position, really. Our liberties are being taken away one by one. Our constitution is soooooo important, and I see it being changed by people who do not have the right to do that. However, that being said, We hire police officers to protect us. We require them to give an oath to do just that, and to do it within the law. We expect them to put themselves in harms way to protect us, and, often, they die doing just that. I believe we have an unspoken requirement of citizenship to co-operate with them in order that they may do the job of protecting us, in as safe a way as is possible. Safe for them, and us. Your action took the time of 3 officers away from perhaps stopping some actual crime somewhere else, and all because you wished to exercise your civil rights. If you simply had complied with the first officer, yes, he was not great at his job, this incident would have been over is about 2 mins. The place to fight for your rights is in the courts, not the streets. Comply Always, and then file your complaint with the courts. This is the correct way to fight for our rights. Not by giving the peace keepers problems. They MUST have the right to keep control of the situation. This means we MUST comply ALWAYS, for our safety and theirs. I agree with your position, but I do not agree with your means of expression.
Leon Evans
Posted by Leon Evans on September 3rd, 2009.
My problem with all of this is how much deeper and awful Justin is making this small issue be. I DO understand that in some cases, and especially in the past… horrible and awful things were done by those in power, and those issues should have been documented and brought. But in this case, honestly, there is no awful conspiracy to bully or take away the liberties of him. I understand that people should stick up for their rights when they are really being taken away, but this was not the case. Justin seems to just love the drama and trying to act like a hero for not showing his ID because he “doesn’t have to”. If it was honestly something morally wrong and was no reason for, I might understand. But really, it was in the middle of the night and the cop was asking for your ID because of what you were doing. It wasn’t that he just randomly was picking people do ID. Come on. How does the police officer know that you aren’t wanted for killing a person in PA, or is someone on the wanted list, or has a gun in his back pocket. Think about it! I guess at the end of the day, unless cops are doing something morally and ethically wrong, why give them problems just because “you can”? They are there to help us. Honestly, the day Justin gets his ass kicked by some people on the street and goes to call 911, or he gets in an accident or gets robbed, he would call these same officers, and they would help him out. Cops deal with shitheads every day, yet they still do their job and will help people out. Looking from a cops perspective, I would get so tired of helping out people every day (Again, I’m talking about the good ones, who really are the majority) and just getting this kind of stuff. I guess Justin, you would be a little more respected and taken seriously if you were taken issue with a cop or someone actually being ridiculous. But its 1 AM, this cop is checking out what is going on, and asks for ID like he is supposed to. I don’t think the constitution and and our civil liberties are at stake here.. And your smug and cocky attitude was disgusting.
Posted by Jennifer on September 3rd, 2009.
Policeman does not make up his/her law. Policeman is trained to treat criminals as criminals and lawful citizens as such. There are rules and steps to follow but a few are not upholding the laws that they are entrusted. Breaking the very laws that they are supposed to protect & follow because of their egos or ignorant.
No one denies being a police is difficult, and we don’t try to make it more so. But don’t blame the innocence. If we overlook with ‘good intention’ of the unlawful practices of a few policemen, we are mocking the very legal system the police are for.
Justin is not wasting the time/taxpayer(our)$; those few policemen are. Their mentality need to be changed.
Practice the law and put his ego aside but it is human frails to abuse his given power. We need more ‘justin’ to stand up for justice/our freedom which is not given by the State or even by the people(it is a different topic) otherwise it could be taken away from us, like some tyranny thought they did in other countries (for the good of their ‘majority’).
Justin, you are blessed to be here and we are blessed to have you around at this issue.
Be careful when you go to other countries with the same expectation or you will end up beaten in a sorry jail which most of the citizens here don’t have any idea of and take their freedom and liberty for granted.
Posted by Dennis on September 3rd, 2009.
You guys are idiots!!! Do you think those officers just felt like bothering someone in the middle of the night? That is what we pay the brave officers to do, go out and confront people, find out what they are doing because the rest of you are to afraid to. The Officer going out of his way to just stop Justin because he was rollerbladding down the middle of the street at early hours of the morning and ask for id is more than acceptable. Do you know how many criminals officers get off the street simply by going up and id’ing them? If it wasn’t for them, most would still be walking down the street. Justin is no hero, he’s an idiot. Calling cops pigs is just ignorance. They are here to help and put bad guys in jail. Most of you cop haters are just old wannabees who at one point and time wanted to be a cop but just couldn’t. So leave them alone and let them continue to do there job.
Thank you officers for your hard work.
Posted by local tax payer on September 3rd, 2009.
Wow. Lots of vitriol here. If there was indeed an ordinance against rollerblading down the street (which Justin claims there isn’t), then the officer *may* have had a reason to ask for ID. If not, then what other reason did the officer have for stopping him? Because his phone rang? My phone rings 20 times a day. Can an officer stop me and ask me for my id every time? Police cannot just ask for ID because they want to know who someone is. There are rules like this in place to stop our society from becoming a police state. On the other hand, let’s play devil’s advocate here. Let’s say that there IS and ordinance against rollerblading. The officer states in a roundabout way in the video that he normally doesn’t enforce that law. There are thousands of old laws on the books that are not enforced. Let’s say that there’s an old law from the 19th century forbidding the wearing of the color green for whatever reason. Obviously this is not enforced. But can a cop ask someone for ID under this pretext? I would certainly hope not. Justin, you’re a hero and a patriot my friend. Don’t let these people from the rants site tell you otherwise. They would love to throw out the constitution and establish a theocracy with Billy Graham as the chief propaganda minister. They’re nothing more than the domestic Taliban. Keep fighting, bro.
Posted by Captain Kirk on September 3rd, 2009.
justin,
As an activist i urge you to do something about the harassment they placed on you. this is actually something YOU can make money off of for being falsely accused of something and harassed by an officer. This video is actually a support to the bridge of the margin of errors in the government system we have. I still idol you for the way you stand up for your rights, you have the right to be proud my friend.
Posted by Kevin DeCoskey on September 3rd, 2009.
You are one of the most ignorant people I have ever run across in my life! You were doing nothing other than wasting time and BEGGING to be arrested. The best thing you could do for yourself and the rest of the general public is to GIVE UP THE DRUGS, get a real job and try to be a productive member of society.
If you really hate the way things are in this country, get the hell out! I’m sure there are many areas around the world where you would be able to roller blade any place you want without risk of police hasseling you. Of course, you would also not be able to expect ANY protection either. but at least you would be happier. So, run Justin, run! Get away from the big bad government and hide away with your pot and whatever happy pills you need.
Posted by Lynette on September 3rd, 2009.
I am standing on the “wasting time” side.
You mention not wanting to show your ID to a stranger.
Odd, in the video you object to showing your ID to “an officer of the state.” For what? Freedom?
Sounds like we have an anarchist on our hands.
That’s what you are, if you wish to have “true” freedom. The fact that we have a governing body means that we give up some freedoms for security.
If you wish to be truly free, you wish to be truly not American. I’m not calling you unpatriotic as I am sure you feel that your ideals are for the betterment of this country, I am simply saying your ideals place you somewhere OTHER than America.
Posted by 45ShadesOfThought on September 4th, 2009.
Kudos for standing up to that cop. Either he is ignorant about PD’s ordiances that he is paid to know, or he is simply dishonest and tried to abuse his power. I tend to believe the latter. You really should file a complaint against his ass. He NEEDS a formal reprimand in his file. The next time he does this (and he will), it might not turn out so well for the innocent.
99% of the morons over at BCVoice would simply give away their rights because of convenience. I fear this will only get worse as the National ID card becomes a reality.
Posted by Jim on September 4th, 2009.
why were you rollerblading in the middle of the street at 1am, and why on earth would you keep your weed in your pocket?
those are the questions that need to be answered
p.s. was it goods??
Posted by Mark on September 4th, 2009.
i soooo wish you would have let those douche bags go around and “win” by calling, or even better knocking on the doors of all the people they would have had to in an attempt to find out where you lived. That would be wonderful. Let some policeman run around and do all that, hell let all 3 get on their ponies and get to knocking.. Freedoms that you were enforcing on your behalf are what keep them from abusing their power. Keep up the good work. I have no sympathy for their “hard jobs”, customer support is a hard job, and ‘risking their life’ is no excuse to be a ding=a-ling to anyone bc they are having a bad day.
Posted by baird on September 4th, 2009.
I often skate late at night – it’s a great way to workout. In the middle of the day, there is just way too much traffic. I don’t see what’s so bizarre about that.
And to Mark: I had cannabis in my pocket because I thought I might want to smoke some. I figured that’d be self-evident.
Posted by Justin on September 4th, 2009.
To Lynette: Your comment doesn’t meet the baseline of intelligent thought required to provoke a content-based response from me. Feel free to try again.
To 45ShadesOfThought: Yeah, you have a point. I consider my politics something less fundamentalist than anarchist – I use the phrase “peace-and-love Republican.” I do believe in the Republican ideals espoused at the time of our founding, but I can’t deny that most people now regard the USA as a sort of Democracy rather than a Republic.
Regardless, this is my home, and yes I do feel patriotic when I invoke the ideas enshrined in our founding documents.
Posted by Justin on September 4th, 2009.
Justin – in regards to your last comment “I do feel patriotic when I invoke the ideas enshrined in our founding documents”, THAT is your problem. I honestly, TRULY get what I believe to be your underlying goal. That we do have freedoms, this is America, and we should stand up for our rights. But at some point, we are all in this together. This is our country, and if people like yourself want to cry foul everytime a police officer tries to ID you, then honestly we are going to get nowhere. I don’t think the founding fathers meant what you are trying to stand up for. I get that you like to skate at night, whether there is a law or not, it is not totally unreasonable that a cop stopped you! If it was during the day, and there were tons of people around, and he just pinpointed you for no reason, maybe you’d have a case. But really, this is America, we want to move forward and make positive changes. But people like you will never allow that. You are so aware we have freedoms, but these freedoms have limitations to them. But you are right at the same time, we have the freedom to choices. You can make the choice to be uncooperative because you “can”, but then at the same time, you can make that choice and have the consequences, which I’m sure will all be unjust and a huge conspiracy to take away your rights. All I’m saying is this issue here is not one to take a moral stand and use your knowledge of “free america and founding fathers”. I can’t disagree that awful issues do arise in America today, so go fight for those causes. But a police officer asking to ID someone skating in the middle night is not cause to try and be an American hero. sorry!
Posted by Jennifer on September 4th, 2009.
Jennifer, thanks for bringing the conversation back to a civil level. I thought your previous comment was pretty dumb, but this one is worth responding to.
It seems that you have a certain belief in the underlying principles of democratic rule – that is to say something like, “if the majority agrees upon a certain policy, we must all act in good faith toward the implementation of such a policy – after all, we’re all in this together.”
I do not adhere to this philosophy, and I think that as well intentioned as this thought process might be, it is a predictable steeping stone toward tyranny.
Instead, I find comfort in the republican response to this notion, which is something like, “even if the entire electorate favors a particular law, the government may not enforce it unless it has the enumerated power to do so.”
I don’t regard the government as having authority over any part of my life unless and until I inhibit the liberty of another person. In this case, I was skating in my own neighborhood in a way that did not inhibit anyone else’s liberty to do or not do the same.
Thus, participation in the practice of compelling citizens to show identification is, to my way of thinking, a destructive act to my community. Conversely, allowing this particular government agent to act only within the limited powers granted to them is a positive contribution to my local community.
Note that, as far as I am aware, all of the residents of Port Dick who have chimed in have agreed with this general notion (it’s not clear that “Local Taxpayer” is a resident of Port Dick, only that he or she claims to be from the Southern Tier area).
It’s also important to me, morally speaking, that I tried my best to be nice to these people. My decision to restrain their actions only to their legal authority is, to my way of thinking, only useful to the extent that I did not belittle them or their duties.
I don’t fault you for having the ideals you have, but I do retain the prerogative to shape my community in the way that I see fit.
Posted by Justin on September 4th, 2009.
I really do not get it??? Why is everyone missing out one major point here.
I cannot believe someone is calling you an anarchist for having a problem with you showing a police officer his ID.
Also I really have to agree with one of the comment on your vimeo page(or somewhere) that you just read something on the internet and now are “suddenly” worried about your freedom.
Dont get me wrong I support you the only reason I agree because in all your comments(replies) you seem to think that showing your ID is your “choice” or being asked to show your id is “despotic”
NO DUDE.
The answer is if people are required to show their ID every time a police officer asks them to, it means that we have to carry our ID everywhere we go.
Tomorrow we want to walk the dog in our nightdress late and night or we just want to go for a walk in our neighbourhood.
Or lets say your friend two block away calls you to sleep over. You just decide to walk there in your night suit.
You do not have the “FREEDOM” to do that.
It means you have to carry your ID everywhere.
Unless your doing something that is “obviously” illegal, there is no reason for any law enforcer to ask you for you identification AS YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO CARRY IT WITH YOU ALL THE TIME.
IF the govt/police and all the people who are do not agree with you think that then that is wrong because,
IF we are supposed to carry our ID all the time, it means we are a “criminals until identified”
What these idiots do not know is that this exactly what happens in a dictatorship.
Since everyone is the enemy of the state. The ID card is a perfect way to “enforce” control.
To keep us in fear.
To all those who say that “You should have just shown your id and not wasted anyones time here” I just ask them ARE WE SUPPOSED TO CARRY OUR ID WITH US ALL THE TIME.
As you see many people agree(even those who oppose you) that the first cop was being a jerk.
He simply asked you his id because HE KNOWS THAT AMERICA IS STILL A FREE COUNTRY WHERE YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO CARRY YOUR ID WITH YOU ALL THE TIME.
So it is obvious that the cop was simply trying to HARASS you, he is a sort of a biased cops. He thought all skaters were trouble makers(I am sure he also thinks all blacks are thugs) so he decided to pull you over and “bully” you and/or “shake you down” just for his entertainment maybe.
He was no way legit(since you already found that what you were doing was not illegal).
So he realizes you are not the one to be messed around with, but he does not want to give up.
He aks you for the id assuming or rather he was damn sure you would not be having it(because i repeat HE KNOWS THAT AMERICA IS STILL A FREE COUNTRY WHERE YOU ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO CARRY YOUR ID WITH YOU ALL THE TIME.) and that was his plan B.
Since he is not giving up he thought let me do the “ID” trick.
But you did not fall for that either. Hats off to you.
You did the right thing.
If you were not carrying your id or rather any other person in your place who was not carrying his id. This Jerk of a cop would have “shook him down”. Maybe he would have also arrested him(since the anyone else would have thought it was a crime or the police have the right to assume YOUR ARE GUILTY UNTIL YOU ARE IDENTIFIED).
So you did the right thing. Infact the police cannot ask for ID.
) then only the police has the right to ask your ID and if you do submit he can take either take you home(if he is a nice cop) or take you to the police station and let you make a phone call and have someone pick you up with your id.
The police only asks for ID if he wants to let you go.
Lets say you were doing something rash or maybe at 2 in the morning you were kicking trashcans in your neighbourhood(becuase you are jerk
Considering what you were doing. It is equal to a police stopping a random guy on the street and asking him for his id.
Also if we are supposed to carry our ID all the time it gives rise for misuse.
In the Middle east(happens mostly with South asians) if someone wants to harras your or get you in trouble they can have the cops ask you for your passport(that is if the cops is bribed) and when you show your passport the cop just takes it puts it in his pocket takes you to the station and arrests you for not having any documents on your(he declares you an illegal resident and has you deported) This has actually happened many times in the past nowadays it is less.
When a person leaves a job for better pay(normally the employer retains your passport but some people steal their own passports and leave the job because they are exploited and get paid peanuts and bad accommodation and food) so to get back at them the “locals” do this. As you know in the middle east it is almost tyranny.
So having this id system can be used to exploit anyone.
.
That is why the “liberal idiots” do not want an ID system because it gives scope for tyranny.
If a bad govt comes to power they can simply arrest people for not carrying their id(and even if they were carrying their ids they can confiscate it and claim they never gave any id)
There is so much more. I know movies are fiction but in the movie THE NET(Sandra bullock) you see that how the villains change her details. A national id(RFID system) system can give rise to this vulnerability where anyone who does not agree with the govt can be put away.
So you now you know why I agreed with the person who said you read a little on the net and started screaming freedom
Because the choice to show your id is not your freedom.
The fact that the id system is not right.
And the fact that this cop was simply trying to “yank your chain” and you stood up for it. Hats off to you.
This cop should be punished for trying to abuse his power.
Posted by rawraj on September 4th, 2009.
Also wanted to add some good points or phrases if you may.
If you think there is no harm in showing your ID think twice.
what if you forgot your ID does that make you a criminal. Can the police take you to the station and detain you till you are identified. ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU WERE NOT DOING ANYTHING ILLEGAL(as in justins case).
“GUILTY UNTIL IDENTIFIED” is that the america you want to live in. Is that the system anyone in the world would want to live in.
Posted by rawraj on September 4th, 2009.
You did the right thing and your real crime was showing local officers that you are smarter than they are. Most officers gamble that the people they “pull over” do not know the law and so attempt to bullshit their way into getting a citizen to do what they want. This a MODEL video for anyone interacting with unfair/unlawful police harassment. Those officers should be fired imemdiately and if they are not, there should be a lawsuit anad I do hope that someone represents you in that suit gratis.
Posted by Reece on September 4th, 2009.
You’re my hero! Ha! I love how you keep a pleasant tone of voice the whole time. Just wonderful.
Posted by Michelle on September 4th, 2009.
Maybe you shouldn’t have pushed the conversation just for the sake of pushing it. I have seen many situations where police are jerks and the first officer may have been a dick, but seriously, just do what they ask and move on.
Posted by Jason on September 4th, 2009.
To rawraj:
I did not call Justin an anarchist, I said to truly be free, you can not be governed by anyone but yourself. Since we have a government, we are not truly free. To wish for true freedom is to wish for no government.
However, to be an anarchist, he would have to hate the governing system and be working to abolish it.
Justin said in the video that he was opposed to showing officers of the state, whom are representatives in some part of the government, his ID. That would make it seem like an anarchist.
However, he wants the best to happen to this nation, and a nation is no nation if it is not governed. So he is not against the government as a whole, just HOW it governs, so he is not an anarchist.
I still think he should have just shown his ID and been done with it.
And yes, I think we should (not “have to”) carry ID on ourselves at all times as a matter of convenience, not to mention that cops can use ID to identify potentially dangerous criminals.
What if something horrible happened to you that caused your death and the only way to identify you would be a driver’s license, but you decided to FIGHT THE POWER and leave it at home that day?
Besides, on average, how often are you FORCED to show ID? If it were every time a cop saw anybody, then it would be a problem.
To get back on the cops using ID to identify criminals, it makes sense to let cops know who you are. It is expected. If you are not a criminal, what do you lose in letting a cop know who you are and that you have no criminal record (or at least no outstanding charges)? Nothing. Not a bit.
The only people who have something to lose by not showing ID are criminals, which is why it is suspicious when a seemingly innocent person refuses to show ID, especially when saying “I refuse on principle to show ID to officers of the state.” Why would a “normal, average, everyday” citizen be so totally against a governing body? (the answer might just be “because they have something to hide”)
Posted by 45ShadesOfThought on September 4th, 2009.
Quick edit in the first sentence of that last paragraph:
The only people who have something to lose by showing ID are criminals…
Posted by 45ShadesOfThought on September 4th, 2009.
you were being disrespectful…if you would agree to go along with him, that would be respectful
Posted by lymunn on September 4th, 2009.
Hey bro. Just watched your vid and think your a frickin hero dude. I live in Endicott, NY and was wondering if it’s the same laws here. But you say don’t show it anywhere in NY. So can I refuse?
Posted by Jim on September 4th, 2009.
I think that police deserve our utmost respect for doing an important, dangerous job.
But police detaining or searching citizens based on a non-existent law is completely unacceptable. His behavior suggests that he knew that the charge was fictional.
Posted by Ras Fred on September 5th, 2009.
Your a brave man, I have tons of respect for you. Your represent the people.
Posted by Michael on September 5th, 2009.
Justin, from what I can tell, you and I disagree on many issues. However, one thing we have in common, I think, is that we would defend each other’s right to disagree. I’m very impressed by the way you handled this situation, sticking to your rights while staying calm and self-controlled. Good for you.
Posted by Megan on September 5th, 2009.
this video is hilarious. though it only proves that cops are complete morons with a lack of education.
Posted by brahaha on September 5th, 2009.
Please note: This comment is not from the blogger, but a different Justin H.
Hello,
I thought to myself what can I add to this conversation that has not already been said, so I have decided to add some quotes from our forefathers which I feel are pertinent this conversation.
One thing though it is important for everyone to remember that the freedom given us from our forefathers is one taken not given. If we are to maintain our freedom we must stay vigilant and garner the support of the masses. Rights can be taken in a day as in war or slowly sucked away in exchange for a perceived need. If we do become a police state it will happen slowly and only until all the appropriate provisions have been made will it become obvious that we are no longer free.
I consider the foundation of the Constitution as laid on this ground: That “all powers not delegated to the United States, by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States or to the people.” To take a single step beyond the boundaries thus specially drawn around the powers of Congress, is to take possession of a boundless field of power, no longer susceptible of any definition. – Thomas Jefferson
Do not separate text from historical background. If you do, you will have perverted and subverted the Constitution, which can only end in a distorted, bastardized form of illegitimate government. – James Madison
To maintain the ascendancy of the Constitution over the lawmaking majority is the great and essential point on which the success of the [American] system must depend; unless that ascendancy can be preserved, the necessary consequence must be that the laws will supersede the Constitution; and, finally, the will of the Executive, by influence of its patronage, will supersede the laws … — John C. Calhoun (1782-1850)
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety. – Benjamin Franklin
Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. – John Adams (1814)
Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of Liberty. – Thomas Jefferson
If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you. May your chains set lightly upon you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen. – Samuel Adams
Those who expect to reap the benefits of freedom, must, like men, undergo the fatigue of supporting it. – Thomas Paine
An Avidity to punish is always dangerous to liberty. It leads men to stretch, to misinterpret, and to misapply even the best of laws. He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself. – Thomas Paine
The preservation of the sacred fire of liberty, and the destiny of the Republican model of government, are justly considered as deeply, perhaps as finally staked, on the experiment entrusted to the hands of the American people. – George Washington
Posted by Justin H on September 5th, 2009.
Justin, Let me run a scenario by you. You ride past a cop, and either you or your phone says “Fuck the Police”. Knowing the law like you do, and reading your comments it appears you do, what if the cop charged you with disorderly conduct because of obscene or abusive language in public? He would then have been completely justified in getting your information. It sems like you had the upper hand in this because the cop in Port Dickinson didn’t follow through law wise. As for Julie and the other guy, they were there as backup and didn’t seem to add any real words of wisdom and probably should have just stayed quiet and let you deal with just one guy insted of diverting the conversation amongst the 3 of them.
Posted by Joe Public on September 5th, 2009.
Joe Public: So your hypothetical, which can’t refer to me because I don’t use the phrase “fuck the police,” raises some interesting questions.
First, how loud is this hypothetical obscenity? Saying “fuck the police” is perfectly legal as long as it doesn’t violate a noise ordinance. Several court cases have dealt with this exact phrase.
Second, let’s suppose the officer decides to charge someone with 240.20 (disorderly conduct). Even then, the officer cannot legally compel a person to produce identification in New York State.
In fact, according to Penal Code 140.50, the officer needs to reasonably believe that the person in question engaged in either a felony or misdemeanor defined in the penal code. 240.20 is in infraction. So, presumably, the officer would need to place the person under arrest and bring them before a judge who could legally require them to identify themselves.
The obvious difference here is that in your hypothetical, the person is being an asshole. As I posted above, that really changes everything. If you stop treating other people with basic human respect and decency, our rights get us nowhere.
So, if you want to assert your rights and limit government actions to their enumerated powers, please do so nicely and in a way that does not dehumanize anybody.
Posted by Justin on September 5th, 2009.
Justin, I stumbled upon your video encounter and I just wanted to say thanks for sticking up for our rights and showing the internet a piece of how things should be.
Posted by Jason on September 5th, 2009.
Thanks for sticking up for your rights. While I am not suprised by the police officers attitude, (I’ve experienced this kind of stuff on more than one occasion), I’m stunned by the law and order lickspits that are posting here. Simply hearing a noise is not grounds to be detained. Making up ordinances is absolutely unbelievable. I don’t think you should have given you name though, not until they arrested you. All those people who talk about the rational thing to do miss the point. Police officers looking for problems can sometimes cause them.
Posted by Pablo Francesca on September 6th, 2009.
Actually, I’m very surprised they didn’t beat you up, arrest you for affray, and erase the footage on the camera. No way would any police in the UK ever permit themselves to be filmed, but they have the new anti-terrorist laws that allow them to lock you up for a few days on suspicion with no charge…
Posted by Steve on September 7th, 2009.
The post by a (Ken Jones) claiming to be a cop from http://www.vimeo.com/2230232 after seeing your recording, Is exactly what we should most fear about the wrong people having the power that police have. I feel sorry for anyone inocent running into him. If indeed some how he fell through the cracks, and is actually became a police officer.
Have you told, or inquired, into internal affairs or who ever of the reasons for their actions?
Posted by Chris on September 7th, 2009.
Thanks for sharing, I could feel the pit of my stomach churning while listening to this. It gave me such an uneasy feeling and made me want to puke. They have the power and are clearly abusing that power by acting in the manner that they did. I almost half expected you to skate away and for them to throw you to the ground and arrest you for “breaking the law”. The cops truly need more education but they don’t see it because they are employed by guys just like them lol!
Posted by Peggy on September 8th, 2009.
Let me start off by saying that I don’t agree with them all ganging up on you. That was a childish show of force and an intimidation tactic. Nor do I agree with a good portion of the dialogue. On both ends…
but
Whether or not the officers were wrong, and at least the first officer is pretty dense and inarticulate, I don’t understand why you feel the need to exercise your “fundamental right” to not show your ID at 1am… Just because YOU know you’re not a criminal doesn’t mean that they do.
Yes you had the right not to, but in not doing so you’re only creating problems. You were being passively aggressive and yes disrespectful to the officers and thus disrespectful to the idea of law enforcement. Anarchist much?
Mayhap the ordinance doesn’t exist. I don’t know. I don’t live in NY, but I don’t see why you purposefully complicate your life and the lives and jobs of those around you who are hired by the people and government to try to help you. (‘you’ doubling as the general populace as well as you personally)
Just show your fucking ID man. Unless you have something to hide it’s not a big deal.
I agree with the cop that posted on your vid. You’re not a civil liberties expert and you’re just looking for trouble and passing it off as “civil rights”
let me hop off topic for a moment to talk about civil rights
Civil rights is me spending 5 hours writing a speech to read at a city council meeting with 600+ people in attendance to pass an ordinance written to keep businesses from discriminating according to gender identity or sexual orientation.
Not some punk ass kid who’s looking for trouble the moment a cop pauses him just to check what’s goin on.
But that’s just my opinion. Which, by law, I am entitled to.
Posted by Camreon on September 8th, 2009.
@Camreon….you sound just like the cop(s) in the vid. Do you not understand that Justin didn’t care if not showing his I.D. made things more complicated? He even says in the vid. It’s people like you that the cops love. Someone who wants to get out of there as quick as possible so they agree to whatever the cops want. If everyone did that then there would be no one to stand up for our rights. I’d sit with cops for days if thats what it took to protect and enforce my rights. I believe in my principals more than appearing “normal” and showing things that I DO NOT have to. We need people constantly challenging/enforcing our rights…who else is gonna keep the “law” in check?
Posted by Jim on September 8th, 2009.
Cameron, totally agree with you! Justin, what a whiny little wimp you are. Typical ACLU material. Learn which battle to fight!
Posted by Tim on September 8th, 2009.
Oh, and I bet all of the people defending Jason on this topic would be the same people calling for the cops resignation if this happened. Let’s just say that at 1:00 in the morning the cops pull someone over for appearing to do something suspicious or illegal (much like they did with you Jason). Let’s also assume that this person may have a warrant for his arrest but stands up for his rights in a very calm & polite manner the way you did & in the end, the cops let him go (just like they did with you). Now let’s say that this guy breaks into someone’s house an hour later a few blocks down the street & kills an entire family or rapes a little girl & later it’s learned that these cops had the guy stopped an hour before, could have prevented it but were not allowed to check his ID because of his rights. Now let’s assume that the little girl was your daughter or the slain family was yours. I’ll guarantee you Justin that you would be the first person to call for the cops heads for not doing their job an hour earlier!
Posted by Tim on September 8th, 2009.
Tim, how do you summon fire without flint or tinder?
I’ve noticed that there is a fairly wide swatch of my readership, maybe around 10%, who regurgitate these kinds of canned responses. The shame of it is, you seem pretty smart and opinionated, and if you learned just a little more about me and what I do (and other similar bloggers / activists) you’d probably both cause and experience less frustration.
So to be clear about your contorted hypothetical – indeed I do not believe the police, under current law, up to and including the founding documents, have the authority to demand ID in the situation you outline.
However, my presumption is that, in the near future, police will be able to easily and rapidly scroll through a database of faces and descriptions of the wanted criminals in small towns like Port Dickinson, who, I want to note, probably number on the order of 1% of those persons dealt with by the police generally.
If an officer then has probable cause to believe that a person committed a felony (or witnesses them as they commit a misdemeanor) the officer can immediately place the person under arrest.
Soon, facial scanners or gait DNA will probably be able to match their database (and allow people to build a database of police officers and use it likewise). At that point, the police will have a way to positively identify that I am not in their database.
Of course, and this is very notable, I think, the only reason anybody will appear in a criminal database is because they have been identified by a *victim*.
I do not victimize people, so I do not participate in government actions, like this one, designed to resolve disputes in which a victim has asked for help from the government.
Nevertheless, I imagine the ACLU will throw a fit over the inevitable technologies I mention, but I recognize that they are just that – inevitable.
So my work, in part, is to positively assert those liberties which restrain the actions government may take, knowing that technology will increase their capacity to find and bring to justice those who victimize others, like the boogeyman in your hypothetical.
Is that satisfactory?
Can the 99 out of 100 people who aren’t criminals be left alone and go about their business absent government interruption now?
Posted by Justin on September 8th, 2009.
You have to be kidding if you think you’re doing a good thing. You’ve diverted the protection of an entire village in an attempt to imprint your egoistic desires upon the public.
You conclude by telling the officers that you think it was better to tell them your name and have them look up your identification than to show them the ID you probably had in your pocket. Wasting 27 minutes of public protection to achieve the same result as a 3-second wallet pull can’t possibly be “better”. You agreed that the result was the same, and sounded content to have been identified by name and computer but not by a card which had been designed and assigned by law for the purpose. A card which you purchased for that purpose.
If you want to make a difference, start a petition or run for office. But do not abuse the necessary and vital finite resources of public security.
Posted by name on September 8th, 2009.
Justin, nice response & well said. From your direct response and the few other posts of yours I’ve read you are well obviously educated, I’m sure much more than I, and you articulate your thoughts well. It’s clear that I would not fare well in a battle of wits with you. I’m just a plain ole conservative Texas boy who very much felt frustrated while watching your video.
For starters, I agree that the cop was an ass for giving you a hard time for rollerblading down the middle of the lane at 1 in the morning, no doubt about it. He could have just told you to get out of the street & on the sidewalk & it would have been over as well (unless you wanted to test your rights over being told to move to the sidewalk…). And sure, maybe for that situation he doesn’t have the “legal” right to ask for your ID. And yes, after certainly being able to assess the situation for what it was, he was an idiot for calling backup. But since he was an ass & did call backup… at some point, common sense has to come kick in doesn’t it?
You did nothing to bring an end to the madness. But instead, you chose to egg them on with the constant throwing of the “…it’s my right” speech in their faces. You just had to make sure that you had to have the final word when talking with the cops as well. It reminds me of the gay rights issue. I think most people could care less about what gay people do but you have so many ‘activists’ just trying to constantly push it in your face that eventually you feel like it’s time to take a stand.
As for your situation you could’ve just handed him your ID, let him check you out & find you were clean & you would’ve been on your way. The cop would not have had a reason to retain the memory of you or use your credentials in any illegal manner & the next day would have been just a normal day. I would fear that now you have 3 cops who will remember the experience of you for quite some time & would certainly see some vindication & joy in citing you for anything possible. Or maybe worse, maybe they’re not there just when you need them. Does it happen? I don’t know, maybe. Is it right? No. Can you prove it’s happening? I highly doubt it. Dude, why bring that kind of crap on yourself? Maybe protecting your rights are worth it but personally I believe there are a lot more important areas to be concerned when protecting my rights such as what rights will I have once this current administration is done as an example!
I totally agree with your face recognition comment as well as the ACLU position. Both I’m sure are inevitable. As to the ‘Contorted Hypothetical’ situation I described earlier, of course it’s out there but you have to admit, strange things do seem to happen more frequently in life these days now don’t they!
Posted by Tim on September 8th, 2009.
Thanks for reminding the police that people are innocent until proven guilty. The 3 pigs in your video have it absolutely backwards. They were obviously trolling because they didn’t have just cause.
Posted by Jim R. on September 8th, 2009.
I stumbled across your video and I enjoyed it. I even found it amusing for the first 5-10 minutes that you used your rights as an American citizen and stood up for yourself. But the problem, for me, came when you were just stating different liberties you had over and over again. Ok, I can still understand that.
You are a smart guy. That is obvious by the way you handled yourself in the altercation. And the fact that you call yourself a journalist and an activist, and that you have so much dialog concerning this issue, also sheds some light on your intelligence. But you are going about it all wrong.
Our rights are there to keep us safe from government control. I agree wholeheartedly with you on that front. But what most people, including yourself, seems to forget is that the government has rights too. Just as any employee of and company has the right to do their job to the best of their ability, the three cops in your video were trying to do their job to the best of their ability. I work in the customer service industry and I have to deal with belligerent people all day at work who want nothing more then to get a free meal. I can usually tell that it is one of two reasons they try to do this.
One is that they just want to see if they can do it. They find it fun to call me out and argue with me about petty things to see if they can get a rise out of me. They want to see if they are still in power even if it is something as simple as meal at a small restaurant.
The second one, and I think this is more to your style, is that some people just like to argue. They enjoy it. They find it a battle of wits to see if they can make the other guy flinch. The problem is that when a person falls into this second category, they tend to be great arguers, but they never argue the point.
To argue issues like this one, you have to address comments very straight-forwardly, directly, and without a bunch of rhetoric behind the answer. You seem to argue around the issue. You tend to only bring up points that will help you while completely ignoring ones that prove the other side. And when you are arguing political issues and our rights as citizens, such as this, you need to be big enough to say “your right.”
Posted by Sam on September 9th, 2009.
I don’t even know where to begin. many people have ripped on Justin for what he said to the cops. What did he say that was bad, and please don’t say “…it’s my right”.
@ Tim I never thought I’d see a Texan say ” Maybe protecting your rights are worth it…”. Don’t get me wrong I understand your follow up and agree ,but wow.
I can say this. after reading this blog I hope I never get arrested. It seem it would be hard to find a jury of my peers. The idea that the loss of freedom happens over a long time is real.History is willing teacher.I know what I about to say is going to piss people off , oh well. Standing up for your freedom no matter how small it seems, is our job. We do it with voting,in courts and yes to the police. There was a time ,not to long ago where government made new laws, and took new powers.They took over auto industry,banks and health care. They put a new police force out.Took over homes and private property. They also killed millions of Jews.I for one don’t want that in the USA. I say defend freedoms big and small.
Posted by Bill on September 9th, 2009.
Hey Justin, great job man. I think that you hit a deep underlying issue here. As a citizen of a ‘free’ country, why can you skate to where your going at 1am with being thought of an outcast or a criminal? Its an issue about conforming to society and what we’re ‘supposed’ to be doing at all times. Your not supposed to be skating at 1am. thats wierd and wrong apparently. See, everyone is asking you ‘why don’t you just show your ID’? Well i suggest this: why did he even have to stop you if you werent breaking the law or causing a disturbance? and why did the first cop call in 2 sets of backup for somebody that wasnt even raising his voice….or why the 1st cop was telling up how he was going to be up for 25 hours by the end of his shift. SOMEBODY please tell me an officer with a gun is working that long? now THATS dangerous….to ask someone to make quick decisions, and drive around your city after being awake that long. I could just see a plea of “i was forced to work that long your honour’.
I laughed when the officer said move to Canada then if you don’t like it. Because i’m from Canada, and this stuff really doesnt happen here…
Take care, and if all of us expressed ourselves like you, it would be a better place, not run by uncle sam
Posted by Jamie P on September 9th, 2009.
@ Tim – “Let’s just say that at 1:00 in the morning the cops pull someone over for appearing to do something suspicious or illegal (much like they did with you Jason).”
Did you not watch the video? The difference is that Justin WASN’T doing anything illegal. The cops made up the ordinance that he supposedly broke. Therefore, if he was actually doing something illegal, they could have detained him and took his ID with no problem.
Posted by Jim on September 9th, 2009.
Hey.
My older brother is a vegetarian activist and somewhat of an anarchist, and I’m not saying that makes me happy because he actually does a bunch of dumb stuff that makes me sad. He’s 22; I’m 19. Our parents are just regular moderate people that for the most part stay out of political and legal affairs completely. I’m pretty moderate, too. But my older brother gets in all sort of trouble (naturally). He was protesting the RNC (Republican National Convention) last year in Saint Paul, Minnesota, and he thankfully wasn’t arrested but brought back some horror stories. I’ve really been made aware of rights and freedoms and stuff. I think that the cop mentality is terribly out of shape; although my atheist brother doesn’t have the chance, I’m friends with a cop who goes to my church and we’ve discussed this very thing: most cops just have an attitude, a power complex. They’re empowered by all this information and control they get when they hop into their car or put on their uniform, and it’s gotten out of hand.
It’s gotten to be where instead of just enforcing laws, they’ve started to enforce themselves and what they think. Instead of enforcing law, they enforce personal opinion of what a “normal person” should be and should act like. I respect cops and have had some good and bad experiences with them, but I’m noticing more and more the kind of behavior exhibited in your video above. Luckily, the best remedy for this kind of cop (and what are much feared by the afore-mentioned power-abusing police) are well-informed, law-abiding citizens that aren’t afraid to stand up for what the LAW says is right, not just the cop. Frankly, what cops say ranges with their personalities, but the law hardly changes. I think it’s a good policy to be informed about the law but skeptical about what the policeman is saying.
Some rights we have:
- To be informed of the law/ordnance that you are violating (with Code)
- To not have to be jailed, prosecuted, or detained until the violation is explained in full, INCLUDING Criminal Code
- To have the name AND badge number of any Police officer in uniform. Any undercover cops that have willfully revealed that they are police force must also share this information.
- To not be questioned or harassed about our personal beliefs, habits, or practices, unless they conflict with the law (Rollerskating at night is not against the law, therefore, they violated your right to civilian privacy by asking you questions)
- To have all available rights AT ANY TIME read aloud without omission. No matter where or when you are, you can ask a cop what your rights are and they MUST tell you.
- IF THESE RIGHTS (among others – see http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/14528res20040730.html)ARE VIOLATED, you are eligible to make a claim or file a lawsuit against the local or federal police force, as well as personal claims against individual police.
Note in the link I posted that when you are not in a car, you have no obligation to show your ID. They were unlawful in demanding it. You were very wise in saying very little; you’d still be within the law if you chose to say nothing at all. They could not arrest you as you were breaking no law.
Anyway, great video… keep up the good work and STAY INFORMED.
http://www.aclu.org/police/gen/14528res20040730.html
Posted by Chris on September 10th, 2009.
Tim, thanks for coming around and being nice.
Your position and comments are very welcome here, even if I or my other readers may not agree with them.
One thing we do agree about is that the world is getting stranger everyday!
I, for one, am excited for the ride.
Cheers. Again – thanks for converting into civility.
Posted by Justin on September 10th, 2009.
So many of you make me sick. You pitiful pukes would give away every right you had for a free cheeseburger from McDonalds! YOU PEOPLE ARE SICK! YOU MAKE ME SICK! YOU RUINED THIS COUNTRY FOR ME AND MY CHILDREN! DO NOT TREAD ON ME! DON’T YOU DARE COME DOWN MY STREET! You take our freedoms for granted and piss them away because you don’t give a shit about anyone but yourself and your precious time! Fuck your tax dollars!
“SHOW ME YOUR PAPERS!” does that ring a bell? ITS THE SAME THING AND ITS JUST AS SICK NOW AS IT WAS THEN!
Cops are only required when people become apathetic and don’t give a shit about anything or anyone. That is not me! That is not my community! No policeman ever has or ever will help me, I just know this to be true. In my time of need it will be my friends, family, and community that helps me, not the police. I come from a time when the word “friend” and “neighbor” meant something. I am so sorry that most of you don’t know now and never will know what those things truly mean.
“Oh that just silly old Justin skating down the street again, he’s so crazy.” Thats what I would say.
How could any of you believe that just being out at night is just cause to question someone? Maybe he works graveyard and got a day off! You don’t know!
Justin these people against you are freaks and so be put to trial for treason! They want the Constitution to die and a complete totalitarian takeover. They wish only to be servants to the “king”.
Justin you are a TRUE AMERICAN HERO!
Bless you and your stance against these modern nazis.
Posted by The lowest street on September 10th, 2009.
errr…. Thanks?
I’m wary of the hardcore zealots on both sides of this issue.
I’m not a hero, just a man who likes to skate in his community and who carries a camera in case a notable event comes his way.
I do generally agree that police are mostly not necessary. THe proliferation of cameras makes it particularly easy to document instances of victimization and seek redress (or appeal to the community to ostracize the victimizer).
In any case, this is now my first 100 comment post. Thanks everybody!
Posted by Justin on September 10th, 2009.
Ha ha! Zealot! Thats good!
I prefer paladin personally.
Standing up for your rights as a US citizen DOES make you a hero.
Anyone who cannot respect what you did in this video is a complete slave and an earns their place as an enemy in my book.
Never forget the constitution. Never give up your rights.
If you don’t exercise your muscles you’ll lose them, if you don’t exercise your rights you’ll lose them!
Every person like you is another wrench in the gears of tyranny!
Every person like you is a hero.
Thank you for what you’ve done here.
Posted by The lowest street on September 10th, 2009.
He does have the RIGHT to ask you for ID. All officers have the right to know who you are when they ask… however I do completely agree with the fact that they were harassing you and that is BS, I would probably do the same.
Posted by Max on September 11th, 2009.
Wow. That was awesome.
Great job, man.
Posted by Sölvi on September 11th, 2009.
Sure a cop does have the right to ask for your ID….but you have the right to say no and not show it
Posted by Jim on September 11th, 2009.
To me, here is what this video boils down to:
Asshole cop, not-so-much-of-an-asshole cop, and somewhere-in-the-between cop meet a perhaps over-righteous civilian after a misunderstanding over a sound, whatever the source of said sound may be.
Civilian then, in stated opposition against “officers of the state” decides not to show ID, as is his right.
Civilian apparently does not get what the not-so-much-of-an-asshole cop says when she explains that “we ID you to make sure you aren’t a criminal.”
If you aren’t a criminal, what do you have to lose? Freedom? What freedom? The cops are there to protect and sometimes being secure means giving up some freedoms.
Not all freedoms, mind you. It seems all the people here that are taking the far side of Justin’s pov think that something so small as showing your ID so that you can be safe is a gateway to TOTAL SLAVERY.
If it comes to that, then revolt. You aren’t preventing anything nefarious when you step in the way of your own security.
Posted by 45ShadesOfThought on September 12th, 2009.
My daughter just sent me a link to this, not sure where she found it, but I wanted to chime in and thank you for standing up for your rights and sharing this experience. I haven’t read most of the comments but I’ve seen enough similar things to know how the comments tend to go, and I know they’d just make me angry. Sure, the easy thing would be to just cooperate. But history has shown that the tendency of the masses to do the easy thing gradually leads to tyranny. Our rights mean nothing if people don’t take a stand and exercise them.
Posted by Dave on September 14th, 2009.
thank you for that
im glad there are people like you out there who will not just step aside and let the unnecessary violations of our rights happen. the one part that grabbed my attention was when all 3 of the officers were referring to the so called ordinance over and over again like it actually existed. Im glad you stood strong and to honestly say although i have my beliefs i know me, myself would cave under the pressure. Im very proud of you thanks again for taking that stand.
Posted by Candice on September 14th, 2009.
Completely outrageous. I think you handled yourself well, and I’m glad you’ve uploaded this video, but I do think making an official complaint would have been constructive.
Posted by Jay on September 15th, 2009.
Yeah, okay the cop was being a bit of an ass. Especially stopping you for not just ‘no reason’, but a made up one (the fake ordinance).
However, it would have been a lot easier to just show ID if you had it, or to give the police your name and DOB so they could run a check and let you be on your way. I understand that you felt in was an invasion of privacy… I just can’t relate to it. In a lot of european countries, you can be arrested for not having ID on you… which I feel is somewhat extreme also. Anyway… I have kinda forgotten my point now… but whilst the police weren’t in the right, I think you were being unnecessarily difficult.
(I’m not American, I’m English… can you tell? Lol!)
Posted by Nick on September 15th, 2009.
Hey Justin, i live in port dick as well. I cannot thank you enough for this video. This is by far my favorite video to be posted on the internet. All because you used your rights , and you hit them with the facts. when you know a cops job better then he does i guess it pisses them off
thanks again!
Posted by Brandon D on September 15th, 2009.
As an Australian citizen I have followed this debate with interest but also with some confusion.
Is there a US Identity card issued by the federal or state governments?
Is there a legal obligation for an ordinary person to a) have,or b)carry some form of ID?
If there is no US ID card what sort of ID are the police asking for and what is and is not satisfactory?
For those who think that it is OK for authorities to stop and require ID of a person without due cause, might try some travel overseas and see first hand what can and does happen when anyone has excessive power over another, there are country s where you can disappear for weeks or months or years without having committed or been charged with any offence at all.
I know because I live in a country where people have been put into concentration camps (detention centers) because they could not prove they were citizens. Fortunately the Government who did this went overboard and promptly lost the last election.
Do not take your constitutional rights lightly. Thousands of soldiers died to ensure you kept those rights. Do not let them be stolen by stealth and steady erosion. The standard that you walk past and ignore is the standard you accept. Dont6 believe me?
GOOGLE Cornelia Rau or go to these links.
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/pubs/RB/2004-05/05rb14.htm;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelia_Rau%23Detention&usg=AFQjCNFQtQWN8GltMBxWfjsrCglYOqkvMQ&ei=3tWwSuPoIo7a6gPtwfDfAQ&sa=X&oi=section_link&resnum=3&ct=legacy
Colin
Posted by Colin Rose on September 16th, 2009.
Justin,
I respect your for having those tremedous guts and staying calm in a situation like that.
Everyone: please do not take this lightly. You don’t know what you have until you lose it. I urge you to have a look at other countries’ history and learn from that. It starts with innocent things like this and escalates out of control.
In my country you have to carry your ID with you at all times and you’re obliged to show it if required. Everywhere. We’ve had military coups in the past and last time there where 30.000 “dissappeared” people, most of them because “they were not normal” as the police officer said, meaning “you don’t take every shit we feed you with”.
I know many of you think that will never happen in the US. Please, think again, because it’s coming. It’s up to you if you’ll let it happen.
Posted by Barbara on September 16th, 2009.
I think you are wrong. The officers were polite and professional. You are an arrogant ass, hopefully you will grow up and realize that.
Posted by Derek on September 16th, 2009.
“polite and professional.” LOL.
Posted by Andrew on September 16th, 2009.
Polite professional and wrong.
Posted by Colin Rose on September 16th, 2009.
[...] Remember: You don’t have to show ID to police in New York State. | This Just-in! at Justin Holmes…. Interessantes Video. man vergleiche das mit der art wie der FSA-Demonstrant behandelt wurde. (tags: civil rights) [...]
Posted by links for 2009-09-17 « Where is my towel? on September 17th, 2009.
Hey Justin nicely done.
Authorities think they can stand on the rights to ask whatever they want, without a reason. The last words you said on the video are the reality.
You were nervous, you were maybe angry, but you did it so good. An example of emotional intelligence against unfair.
Posted by Dx on September 17th, 2009.
[...] This is a video of an encounter I had with police in the village of Port Dickinson in New York State [video posted Nov. 2008, happened Oct. 2008].I was “pulled over” while inline skating and told that this activity was illegal under a local ordinance. I have since placed an inquiry with the village code enforcement officer and found that there is no such law.The officer who pulled me over asked me for ID and I refused to show it. He called two other officers to the scene. There’s lots of discussion about this video on my blog as well (I’d love for the discussion to be all in one place, on the blog):justinholmes.com/2008/11/remember-you-dont-have-to-show-id-to-police-in-new-york-state/ [...]
Posted by Don’t show ID in New York State! « COTO Report on September 17th, 2009.
Justin,
Being somewhat knowledgeable about law enforcement, (one brother in it for almost 30 years in Florida, a nephew in it for over 10 years in TN and GA), I am glad to hear someone else stand up for their personal rights. I had an occasion years ago in Mississippi while visiting friends there. It was late at night; I had taken a few teens to a movie, and we were on the way back taking them home. I saw a police car way up ahead as my passengers did also. I was not driving fast, and had each of them check my speedometer to verify my speed,(I had been warned about the area’s officers pulling out of state vehicles and doing searches without warrants or just cause) as I neared the police car, they turned on their lights signaling me to pull over, which I did. They did ask to see my license and registration which I showed them,(not sure about that law there), anyway, there was two officers in the car, and one tried to tell me I was speeding and he was going to search my vehicle for contraband, (a ‘Dry County’). I denied the accusation, stating I had heard about their little traps and would not be subjected to a search without just cause or a warrant. Nor was I going to accept a speeding ticket from the officer because I had 4 witnesses with me who would testify in court in my favor. I did not back down. Finally the other officer told the first to return my ID and papers and “let her go”. I knew my rights at least that far, and stood for them. Had I let them search my vehicle, I would have gone to jail because I not only had alcohol in the back of the clubcab pickup truck I was driving; I had a Remington .22 rifle behind the seat under blankets, etc.. I was ready to push the envelope and when the officers saw I would not be intimidated; backed off. You do not have to subject yourself to search, arrest , ID without a proper given reason for citation. As you stated, you would have gone to jail to prove the point that they were wrong. I applaud you for that sir. I am 58 years old and I too see how the government is taking away our rights a little at a time, because of the complacency of too many of our citizens.
For those of you trying to slam Justin…. re-read what you wrote, you are redundant, ignorant of the laws, and maybe even one of those helping remove our God given rights to freedom; and do not try to tell me if I do not like our great nation to get the ‘puck outta here’. I love our nation, my son is fighting for MY freedom from buttholes like you and for you to have the right to be buttholes who do not appreciate what our military is going through for you.
Justin, continue to stand for what is right. You did nothing wrong, neither before the officer stopped you, nor after, nor at any time during the video. You showed them you know the laws better than they do and that ticked them off, but they too did not want it to go to court, they knew they were in the wrong. That female officer should be canned for her anti-American freedom statements and shipped off to Canada, France, or even Iraq or Afghanistan. Now the pot you had in your pocket,…. had they decided to cite you for interference of an officer’s duty and found that,(like my contraband in my truck), the story very probably would have turned out different. I do not approve of pot in any form, but you being an adult have to make your own choices. The only thing that upsets me about your video is all the ‘crap’ statements being made about you wasting time and money, and do it the easy way. You people making those statements really need to have your heads examined.
Stick to your ‘guns’ Justin.
Jennie
Posted by Jennie on September 17th, 2009.
Hi Justin,
I found this really interesting, especially having seen the information on the 4th amendment right which I didn’t previously know about. I live in the UK, and we don’t have a constitution, or these sort of rights to stand up to police officers. I do want us to have one, although I imagine actually putting one into law would be a messy process. We have the European convention on human rights, but European laws are notoriously difficult to cite in this country. Indeed, I think under the 2000 terrorism act, they get stop and search powers on anyone, for any reason.
The only encounter I have had with an American police officer was at one time I was walking down the road of a very small town at 1.30 on a Wednesday morning. He pulled over to check if I was ok. I wasn’t really, I was really upset about a girl. But he offered me a ride kindly. I said I was just out for a walk, and he left me to it.
Judging by what you said earlier, I think not allowing them to see your ID was slightly risky, as if they had arrested you, and later searched you and found cannabis, you’d be unlikely to have much leniency from them. On the other hand, maybe they thought you’d be high, and the cop wanted to confiscate it for his own purposes. It might have helped him get some sleep after the 25 hour shift!
I have unfortunately had a night in a cell, on a bad night out. I wasn’t violent, but I was arrested and cautioned legally, and I still regret the actions that caused me to be in that position. I appreciated the way that the police dealt with me though, they were sympathetic to me, and polite at all times. I even wrote a thank you letter to the sergeant as to the conduct of his officers. Yes, after being arrested
On the other hand, I’d prefer people to be free from hassle from police officers. It makes it a lot easier for them to do their job properly, if they can have a conversation with people without threatening to enforce their power. If he’d just stopped you and said to be careful roller blading in the road, that would have done the trick. I think in order for them to be that friendly though, there has to be a general level of co-operation between the public and the police, and that’s better gained from both sides respecting the law and following it closely where it comes to these sort of encounters.
But, personally I probably would have shown him my ID, and co-operated, since avoiding arrest here was probably much more important (to me) than the enforcement of rights. This is perhaps also to do with spending a night in a cell, and experiencing just how bad the food is
thanks,
Chris
Posted by Chris on September 18th, 2009.
Im not a big fan of police like the ones depicted in this video. Yet you took things a little too far, with the whole “fighting for freedom” idea.
My guess is you voted for Obama, who’s socialist agenda will take more of your freedoms from you than any cop ever could!
Posted by KTennessee on September 21st, 2009.
Great job and all, but really, those officers could have been patrolling the streets of the village, so yea everyone is a little at fault for not realizing this and ending this exchange immediately. More your fault than any, you FUNDAMENTALLY just let an hour of the village go without patrol. I hope no one was hurt
Posted by Andrew K on September 21st, 2009.
I have not read all the comments.
At the end of the video when you are asking if it legal to skate in the Villiage, I believe the female cop said very legal. The 26:05 mark or so. Then she threatens a noise ordiance.
Posted by DJ on September 23rd, 2009.
I was wondering if you are actually allowed to roller blade on the road… The cop was wrong with his threat, but couldn’t roller blading on the road be view as illegal as roads are for vehicles and bicycles, where the side walk is for a pedestrain… I think he might have had the right to give you a ticket for rollerblading on the road.. I’m not sure though, and I couldn’t find it hopefully someone can enlighten me on that… however if he could have given a ticket he would have had the right to see your ID to ensure that the correct person was been given the ticket…
Kudos for standing up for your right, i was in a similar situation, unfortunatley we complied because I was not entirely aware of my rights at the time and my friend was arrested, which later we found out, the cop had no right but it was to late.
Posted by John on September 23rd, 2009.
The attitude of the Police in this video is very disturbing, but far more so is the attitude of the people in this discussion.
“Why not just show your ID, it would be easier!”
So the next question is, “why not let them go through your pockets, you would be on your way faster!” Then comes the full pat down, the body cavity search and the random blood and DNA tests.
The police have a right to ASK for id from anybody. So do you. So do I. But they do not have the right to DEMAND ID from anybody unless that person is suspected of a crime or an infraction (of a real ordinance, not one they made up). This is true even in a “stop-and-identify” state. If the police do not have a SPECIFIC section of the criminal code they can site, they have no right to detain or even require you speak to them.
Thank you Justin for standing up for our rights! With so many in this country (and posting here) willing to give them up for convenience, I am sure we will not have this right for long.
Posted by Eugezilla on September 24th, 2009.
It amazes me how many people comment “dude, just give him your ID, things would have went a lot smoother”. It is funny how they dont understand that you would rather exercise your rights, than have things go “smoothly”. You may have been wasting their time, but they could have left you at anytime. But really, how much could they have to do in a small village like that. Not much, that clearly shows. I live in a similar type town, where the police just ride around, and look for any little reason to stop you. I was pulled over because my truck was apparently too loud. The officers gave me no solutions, or any consequences to my truck being that loud. They basically pulled me over, sat there for 20 minutes, told me my truck was too loud, and then left. Stuff like this happens all the time. Just be thankful you dont have Tribal police in your town, trying to gain more authority every year. Thats a lot of fun.
Posted by Hunter on September 24th, 2009.
Good job, that’s all I have to say.
Posted by TrigZu on September 24th, 2009.
Funny story… So I’m at work today at my job in Manhattan doing a little research on social networking sites and low and behold I came across your video from digg.com. The funny part is that I grew up in Hillcrest which is the neighboring town to Port Dick and I happen to know one of those cops. So you can imagine my surprise at what a response this video has gotten.
As a person who used to live in the Port Dickinson area I can attest that the Port Dick cops are notorious for being the most hard-ass for no particular reason. For example, once I got pulled over for driving too slow through Port Dick but it was in the middle of a snow storm so of course I was driving slow. Needless to say I understand your frustration when they waste your time and theirs on such menial problems. But I did show him my license just so I could get on my way in a quick & painless manner.
Posted by suzyq on September 28th, 2009.
I just want to say that I applaud the way you handled this situation. I only wish that I had the knowledge and bravery to stand up for my rights as you have done in this situation.
A lot of people seem to think that you were wasting tax payers dollars and time that could better be used to catch real criminals. It is a little interesting that these people don’t see, that law enforcement is not YOUR job. It is not YOUR job to keep everyone safe, only yourself. It IS however the police’s job to protect and to serve. It is THEIR job to make sure not to waste taxpayers money by wasting THEIR time not catching real criminals. Especially after it was made clear by you, that you did not see this as a waste of your personal time at all.
So what if Officer Jim Kurring heard your phone ring. Now you can’t even have a cell phone without being accused? The way it should have gone down, is that the officer should have realized that you didn’t make a remark to him as he thought, but that it was your phone. You hadn’t broken any laws and you were minding your own business enjoying a leisurely activity. You chose to protect your right to privacy, and it should have been his job at that point to realize that there was no reason to suspect you of a crime and then he should also protect your right of privacy.
If a policeman comes to your door wanting to come in your house to search the place without a warrant, he is outside of his rights to do so. Whether or not it is perceived to be a “waste of time” by not allowing him to enter, however true, is irrelevant.
I really wish that the laws and rights of the American people were clear and readily available to any layman that may wish to know. If everyone knew exactly what their rights were and what was precisely against the law at any given time and any given place, the American people would experience much more freedom and confidence.
Unfortunately, I find myself not very knowledgeable on the subject of law. When police harass me I can’t help but feel like I have no choice in the matter. I feel like if this cop just wants to be a dick, he will, and he will ruin my night if not much worse. And then if this were to result in me standing before a judge, I have no protection against his controlling me either, as I am not aware of what my rights and boundaries are or what the law says about what I may or may not have done.
Personally, I think lawyers are the problem. The laws in the US should be easy enough to understand and succinct enough to remember, so that everyone in this country has no excuse for not knowing exactly what their rights are and what they shouldn’t be doing.
I am very uninformed. If there is a place that I can go to get free unbiased, easily confirm-able, and accurate information about what it means to be an American, please send me a link to my email!
I wish that one day I too will be able to stand up for my own rights and the rights of tax-payers that don’t wish to have their time and money wasted on NOT catching the real criminals.
Posted by Kerry on September 29th, 2009.
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.”
-Benjamin Franklin
Why is this concept so difficult to understand? Franklin says exchanging liberty for safety makes you undeserving of either. Those who disagree with Justin’s actions in this video are either too stupid to understand the concept quoted above or they don’t covet the freedoms that this nation was built upon.
Thousands of people spent months traveling across the Atlantic – a journey that killed many who attempted it – just to live in a place that promised to protect the fundamental, “god-given” human rights defined in the United States Constitution: rights that didn’t exist elsewhere. Fast forward a few hundred years and it seems nobody cares about these “god-given” rights anymore. What gives?
Justin not only had the right to not produce his ID, he shouldn’t have been subjected to questioning in the first place. Why do we allow the desire for safety to conflict with freedom from persecution or suspicion? Since when did law enforcement (LE) get permission to suspect each and every one of us of criminal activity until we prove otherwise? Why are we so scared of crime that we are willing to have a group of humans* police the rest of us, stopping us at random to prove that we are in fact not up to no good? Many of the posts above claim that Justin should have shown his ID so the cops could make sure he wasn’t a criminal… WTF?
LE should investigate crimes, respond to crimes in progress and to a certain degree attempt to prevent crime. But if crime prevention means that whenever a cop feels like it, a civilian has to prove he/she is not a criminal then I don’t want it. And if you agree with Franklin and the rest of the Enlightenment, you shouldn’t want it either. What’s next, checkpoints?
The scenario Tim offers is exactly the type of propaganda and fear-mongering that allows right-infringing laws to be legislated and justifies the suspect-everyone-attitude of LE. Sure, cops catch warranted suspects by being suspicious of people all the time and it may even prevent a crime here and there. But the cost of this slight increase in safety is far too expensive.
Criminals with warrants will be picked up one way or another. Maybe they rob a liquor store and that’s how they get caught or maybe they’re caught speeding. Either way they get caught, eventually. And catching them doesn’t require IDing every single person that the cops encounter. Maybe the guy with a warrant robs a liquor store and maybe he even shoots and kills the cashier. It’s a tragedy, I admit, but the cashier’s death would be less costly than a society that is subjected to suspicion until proven otherwise. As it is now, we are suspects without reason (as is highlighted in Justin’s video), yet criminals with warrants still rob liquor stores and shoot the cashier in the process.
My skin crawled when that bitch cop talked about “making sure you’re not a pedophile”. Asking Justin how she knows that he’s not wanted. She doesn’t know and she shouldn’t. This is a free society and in order to have a free society some criminals will slip through the cracks. And – again – those willing to exchange freedom for the security of catching a few warranted criminals deserve neither freedom nor security.
Justin, I applaud you and your courage. I’ve been ‘bent over’ by the police enough times to be thoroughly petrified of them, so I would certainly be far more nervous than you were: especially with a bag in my pocket.
Good luck to all of you!
*Humans are imperfect. Horrible crimes are committed by otherwise good people. Circumstances, the environment and thousands of other factors influence human behavior. Cops are in a position of authority and they deal mainly with the bottom rung of humanity. If it’s not a bank robbery or a murder scene, then it’s a domestic violence situation. They often end up in physical confrontations in order to restrain criminals. These things go to their head. They influence the way cops behave. When you deal with the lowest level of humanity on a daily basis your outlook on humanity falls. These guys’ perspective of society is skewed by their constant exposure to crime and criminals.
Posted by hypo on October 2nd, 2009.
Show me your papers!
Posted by RasaFrasa on October 5th, 2009.
Justin,
Wow, those are some big brass balls. Seriously, this is right up there with Colbert at the Whitehouse press corp dinner. Bang on, you did the right thing – NOT the easy thing. Thank you.
Posted by Pixel on October 9th, 2009.
“Color of law”… “Agent of the Government”….what a bunch of punk-ass junior-college government class bullshit. We’re talking about a cop risking his life every night for $30k a year and you want to bust his balls about showing your driver’s license? You’re giving those cops the old “you work for me,” nonsense, and yet you refuse to let your “employees” do their jobs?
If you’re so interested in “liberty” why don’t you “liberate” yourself from all the government-subsidized programs you no doubt rely on to live your non-conforming life……including staying off the streets built and pay for by real taxpayers like me who want and appreciate the job done by those “government agents” you so haughtily condescend. You make me sick.
Posted by Bojy99 on October 9th, 2009.
@Bojy99 – because they won’t let him. The essence of government is that you’re not allowed to opt out. What part about that don’t you understand?
God if I had a nickel every time I heard this retarded argument, I’d be a very wealthy man.
@Justin: Just awesome. Thanks for this.
Posted by David Z on October 10th, 2009.
Editor’s Note: The commenter says that a “stop and identify” statute exists in New York State. Please be advised that this is not the case. The wikipedia article linked to in this comment points to NY CPL 140.50, which does not require a person to display identification.
These things are always uncomfortable. I will say that those cops were much more civilized than the ones I encounter here in the NYC area; although I noted that the one male cop always seemed on the verge of going into a rage. Anger management problems by police are a big problem and we are all getting quite bored with it.
I think the police in America are generally out of control these days. I don’t agree with one of the comments here that most police are good people. I think it’s more accurate these days to say that some are. Most don’t seem to be part of the citizenry any more or to execute common sense. The cases of abuses mount by the minute. Tasering grandmothers and children. I used to think of cops as brave protectors of the citizenry. However, they come across increasingly as bullies and cowards. I really wonder how all the rogue cops (and there are many of them) go home and hold their heads up high around their children.
I have a friend who is a cop and am happy to say that I think he does a good job and doesn’t get an ego trip out of bullying people. I have heard many of his stories and believe that he tries to diffuse tense situations and make peace like a “peace officer” should.
Some states have stop and identify laws. Here’s a writeup from wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stop_and_Identify_statutes with a list of states. NYS does allow police to ask for ID. It is not clear whether you really have to comply, unless there is valid suspicion of a crime. Were you committing a crime, skateboarding in the middle of the street? Seems maybe you were, so if so, they had a right to ask for id.
Oftentimes, cops see everyone as criminals. This is one of the dangers of dealing with actual criminals much of the day. So they treat the whole populace as criminals and justify all kinds of bad behavior. I am trying to decide if that was the case here. This one is a close call. I think I’ll say in the end that these cops weren’t too bad. And as you can tell from my other comments, I am not one to blindly defend the police.
Posted by Scott on October 12th, 2009.
Heres the rub,
the police and the laws in America have brought the bar of normalcy to such a perverse level that people believe and even the police believe that they have these rights.
It’s a snake eating it’s own tail.
I live in Ireland and firstly the people don’t see the police in a threatening manner, and the police don’t see the people in an us and them way. You want to see freedom come to Ireland or Europe, excepting England where they are just an extension of Americas race to the bottom in rights.
What you have in America is not ‘freedom’ it’s control and it’s a subversive distributed control structure which is nigh on impossible to root out. There is no central structure, it’s a feeling of control, an us and them situation.
you really need a revolution and soon.
your government is owned (it’s in plain sight) by commercial interests. you need to take your country back and soon!
peace, Dave IRL
Posted by david on October 15th, 2009.
great job!!! We deal with very “controlling” police officers on a
regular basis in my area (Rochester, ny), they are very poorly trained in this area, (or well trained depending on the perspective), they will arrest you very quickly for disorderly conduct, obstructing governmental administration, or trump up a charge for refusing to “answer” their questions or failure to “keep it moving”, even to the point of entering your property line with the attempt of finding out who you are.. These tactics are promoted by the police leaders due to issues like house parties that have gone bad, drug dealing etc… They use tactics and policies such as “project impact”, as their tool, little do they know, the way they do things are against our rights. Its frustrating, because I know the intent is to clean the streets, but to rush a front porch and harass a couple of us for sitting on our porch at 11pm for absolutely no reason except the fact we might be the only one on a porch that evening is an example of what they do. Two friends and myself were arrested for OGA for not providing ID, I know my rights, I am very active in protecting my rights just as justin, we were videorecording the event on our cell phones, they repeatedly asked for ID, i repeatedly said ” no, im on private property, u dont have probable cause.” over and over, till they called back up and tackled us down.. We all faught the charges, and had them totally dismissed.. now they are more carefull but they continue to harass because now im marked.. since then i was hit for a trumped up charge, (wont go into detail..(litigation in the works)) I also beat that after police officer failed to show up to probable cause hearing (he knew video recording was going to show he lied)..dismissed..
Posted by Morill on October 19th, 2009.
editor’s note: this comment follows an email exchange between myself and the commenter about his previous comment (above).
my property has 8 cameras now, and audio at the press of a button (so that it only records when im in conversation), Im to the point where I feel like taking up the position Legal Observer and troll the neighborhood videotapping the officers working the streets..possibly use for class action suit or something, It is really getting ridiculous here… for the folks who dont agree..It all comes to this: exercise your rights or, run the risk of not being a free country.. (which is questionable already) .. its either ONE or OTHER.. dont exercise ur rights and the powers that wannabe will gradually-continualy overstep their authority till we have nothing.. Take it easy folks .. and PICK UP A CAMERA!
Posted by Morill on October 19th, 2009.
You handled yourself very well (as far as could be told from the video). These were pretty typical police/deputies, from my experience; ignorant of the legitimate limits on their authority and having a bit of a bully-complex.
Great video, and you did a good job of drawing them out for the bullies that they are (without getting yourself beaten in the process). The only thing I’d say to viewers is that, for most people, the best thing to do is to just keep your mouth shut.
The two phrases I teach my self defense students when encountering police are “I have nothing to say,” and “lawyer please.”
Posted by Seth Murray on October 22nd, 2009.
Great and astute comment Seth.
For people who either don’t have a camera rolling or who aren’t trying to engage in journalism, your suggestion is definitely sound.
When I am engaged and trying to create great content, I am always mindful of the balance between, on one hand, being respectful and effective at asserting my own rights and on the other hand trying to create an experience for the viewer that makes them feel like they are there and like they can assert their own rights in future encounters.
Of course it’s a work in progress, but I’m slowly getting better at it.
Thanks for reading and commenting.
Posted by Justin on October 22nd, 2009.
Justin,
Wow. This is an amazing video. You are my hero. I thought you did a great job of keeping your cool and speaking with these officers who were in fact detaining you for no valid reason.
Posted by Ed on October 31st, 2009.
Really great video, so many people complimented you already and pretty much everything has been said so all i will say is what i believe hasnt been said yet…
HAVE A RECORDER ON YOU at all times if possible, you never know when you will encounter a police officer that infringes on your rights and possibly even lies about it on official papers, if this happens and you have audio proof, perhaps something could be done. All you have to do is press a little button and put it in your pocket. (i believe this is completely legal to do so without even telling the officers, i believe if i am incorrect justin will correct me)
To all the people that say negative things about Justin, telling him to leave the country (first off, how dare you), if the things you said are really how you feel then you really have no place in this country (although i would never tell you to leave, its rude). This country was FOUNDED by men who did not want to give into authority because they felt it was wrong(i understand, topic up to some debate) back then it was the king, now its very different. However, if our founding fathers believe the way you do that it is unnecessary to assert your freedoms then this country would not have been founded. Honestly, its your right for a reason, use it if you want to, i personally will choose to in most cases.
Great job justin, id love to toke with you sometime and chat, you seem like a great guy, mayb well run into eachother sometime, later
Posted by Paul S on November 2nd, 2009.
Heroic. You really confused these officers. They were obviously fishing around for things to say.
By the way, he never made it clear what he was stopping you for. Was it a comment he heard? If he hadn’t heard it, you could have continued roller blading in the street? Officer Cindy saw you roller blading and didn’t stop it. But then he said you were being detained for breaking the ordinance.
I’m surprised they wasted so much time while knowingly being videotaped. They seemed nice enough, but they weren’t so bright, and unfortunately, aren’t aware of State laws.
Posted by Dan on November 21st, 2009.
I like it how dumbed down most S.S. officer (cops) lovers are that they dont realize that the tyranny is affecting them too. Bankers have stolen 28 trillion dollars and who do they use to protect themselves, yes police officers. The cop in this video seems to have been trained in nazi germany because he used the typical gestapo intimidation technique in order to make Justin submit. Any cop that sets out to violate the rights of the people they serve guaranteed by the constitution is unamerican trash that will be tried for treason when we patriots take America back from the offshore bankers. To respond to one of the posters that made a comment about Obama taking away people’s rights, Obama is a puppet of the New World Order bankers and they are the real enemies of the American people and cops need to decide who’s side they are on. For those interested in more information about liberty and freedom go to http://www.infowars.com and watch Fall of the Republic The Presidency of Barack H. Obama Volume I on Google video to find out why cops are so out of control and who’s interest they really protect.
Posted by Dienewworldorder on December 2nd, 2009.
I appreciate this. I think you should spread this message. Thanks
Posted by Shanika Arnold on December 8th, 2009.
Super, Justin, you were very brave, but you repeated yourself too many times, what shows you were a bit scared, but I can understand that, you’re still my hero
Posted by Rasmus on January 4th, 2010.
The fact is very SIMPLE. WE ARE WELL WITHIN OUR RIGHTS TO PROTECT OUR RIGHTS. How can so many people NOT understand? What will it take to wake you morons up to join the rest of us who can actually see what things are coming to? DO you need another destructive life taking event of large proportions? Do you need military outside your front yard enforcing a martial law like state? IT’S NOT HARD TO SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THIS COUNTRY. If YOU CANNOT SEE, DO NOT SPEAK UPON IT. There ARE those of us who WILL stand for our rights until our last breath. **Great job standing up for yourself Justin!** This type of scenario is all too common and WE CANNOT LET THEM WIN or soon we will have NO RIGHTS. LIFE FREE OR DIE.
Posted by Anon on February 2nd, 2010.
P.S. I also strongly AGREE with “Dave from IRELAND” on his last three comments which he suggested.
Posted by Anon on February 2nd, 2010.
I really enjoyed this video for the big picture aspect. It made me realize that a lot of us are not really in touch with our rights and we do a lot of things simply because we’ve never questioned why we do them.
Perhaps when others comment that this encounter was “a waste of time and resources” it’s because they are just looking at this as an isolated incident. The reality is that a lot of people in our country have to deal with discrimination and harassment on a much broader level.
If you were an African-American man or someone of another minority and were being detained for something that turned out NOT to be illegal, I think a lot of people would have a different reaction to this video. It’s not about this one incident..it’s about each individual in this country understanding their personal rights.
It seems that the reason that these cops were visibly frustrated was that they themselves did not fully understand their own rights as officers or the rights of the citizens. So when they were confronted with someone who did not just readily comply, they automatically assumed it to be criminal. I do appreciate the role of law enforcement officers and I believe a good majority of them fulfill that role with grace and dignity. And I can understand that it would be frustrating to feel a lack of respect or appreciation for a very difficult job.
However, even so, it is simply not acceptable for an officer to detain someone because of an ordinance that they can’t even quote. It is also not acceptable to randomly state an act as illegal simply because they don’t want you to do it, such as video taping this encounter. I think if they would have truly known the law inside and out, they could have resolved this incident with a lot more confidence and less frustration.
Thanks for the video. It’s a thought-provoking commentary.
Posted by Nicole Beals on February 20th, 2010.
MAN YOU DID A BEAUTIFUL JOB..YOU ARE JUST TOO SMART FOR THOSE COPS…ANYWAYS I HOPE MORE PEOPLE LEARN THEIR RIGHTS.
Posted by redman on March 7th, 2010.
Justin was right. People who say he shouldn’t have wasted the officers’ time have it backwards. But the officers have a legitimate concern. Weird behavior invites scrutiny. What will this guy do next? Of course, “weird” is hard to define. Roller blading and shouting at 1:00AM probably wouldn’t draw any notice in a big city. In Port Dickinson, anybody out after they roll up the sidewalks at night is probably automatically weird. When you’re out on the street, some of the fine points of permissible stops can get blurry, particularly if the cop has been working 18 hours already. And Justin busted chops. It was his right to bust chops, but nobody likes to have his chops busted. Cops can get chesty about having their authority questioned and react badly. These three were not too bad, maybe because of the camera. What would have happened if there was no camera? Would Justin have been as brave in that case if he was faced with the real possibility that his marijuana would magically appear in plain view and he would be arrested for that and then charged with resisting arrest? If Justin was brought to trial, what are the chances the court would believe him rather than the cop? Perhaps he could comment on how he would have acted without the benefit of having a recording device.
Posted by Tom Paine on April 20th, 2010.
first off most Port Dick cops are asses, but they could have detaned you for suspicion of anything from noise ordence to suspision of criminal activity (there are very liberal guidlines for this) and when you didnt produce ID the could have detained you and brought you to the jail until they figured out who you were. if that did come about before you were placed in the police car you would have been searched and the weed would have been found. then they would have laughed at you and so would we…lol…
Posted by vince on April 29th, 2010.
This was an amazing video, horrendous but so typical. I am almost 60 years old and have experienced this kind of arrogance ( cops with attitudes) many times over the years. It is scary that a lot of people don’t seem to understand that our liberty is being taken from us day by day. You handled yourself well throughout this encounter. The cops were dead wrong , of course … especially pompous, obnoxious and porky – officer #1. Under the guise of protecting us they routinely use “reasonable suspicion” to violate our personal liberty. People who don’t understand this are not students of history and don’t understand the care that our forefathers took to ensure our personal freedom and liberty would not be trampled upon by government or its agents..
Posted by Tim Stockman on May 11th, 2010.
Justin,
I appreciate your willingness to see this encounter through to the end. It was inspiring to watch you pursue your rights even while you felt fear. People are so willing to surrender personal information at any turn these days.
I had a similar, less intimidating, encounter with my bank. I had set up a corporate account and as it was a non-interest bearing account, there was no need to report to the Canada Revenue Agency(Like the IRS). In pursuing my account I was asked to provide my SIN(The number which Canadian use to identify themselves to the CRA). I refused, and they refused to open an account for me. I asked them to write a letter for me explaining their policy, which they happily obliged, and took that letter to my local Ombudsman, who called the bank the next day to inform them that they could not refuse a non-interest bearing account based on a refusal to provide my S.I.N.. The bank asked for the letter back from me(I believe, in hopes to avoid legal action). I did give it back, and they bent over backwards to provide excellent service from that point forward. They still know my face whenever I walk in the bank, and they go out of their way to provide excellent service.
Like you, I realize that it would have been much simpler and less time consuming to just give them what they want, but I feel that I have rights, which are being diminished on a daily basis, which will continue to erode if I don’t do something about them. Canada is a great place, but I wish we had the same wording that you guys have in YOUR constitution.
I have other encounters similar to your experience, where I was more than willing to be placed under arrest to exert my rights.
Another encounter was when I was a designated driver for my drunken friends, and we had stopped at a drive through after going to the bars, we couldn’t eat in the restaurant, so We parked on the shoulder of a street to eat our food.
I recall watching the cars with big antennas go past behind us while we were eating. Then when we decided to drive home, they set up a tactical road block after following us for several miles. They took us all down at gun point, and held us handcuffed on the meridian of the road for almost 45 minutes while they searched my car. I knew that we had done nothing wrong and I was very confident that they were wasting their time. They took my ID from my wallet in my back pocket, but I did not answer any questions, as I knew that they had no grounds for any of their activities, other than observing a car with guys parked in a legal place to park. At most, they could have simply walked up to the window and known by the smell that I had a bunch of drunken idiots in the car with me, and they might have given me a breathalyzer to ensure that I was a sober Designated driver.
I am willing to waste my time and even be arrested to ensure that the people with authority are held to account for their actions, and that they are educated, whether in a court of law, or by another government agency, about their specific roles. Just because it would be “easier” or “faster”, to comply, does not mean that it is my obligation to comply.
Rock on Brother!
Posted by CanadianChris on May 15th, 2010.
Oh Yeah,
I was released and scolded for my misbehavior. No charges, and no acknowledgment that they had wasted everyone’s time(Including the 6 patrol cars used for the tactical takedown) with their shenanigans.
Posted by CanadianChris on May 15th, 2010.
Great job, Justin. Cops do get “chesty” when their authority is questioned. Some of the people commenting here believe no one should ever question the authority of cops under any circumstances. They just don’t get it. Use your rights or lose your rights. And with law enforcement there is a big slippery slope you do not want to go down and that they are going down right now in Arizona. I have been in a similar situation (NYS Court Officer in NYC) and was arrested because I refused to show ID which was demanded for no valid reason. I beat the bogus disorderly conduct charge and sued in the State Court of Claims for false arrest and assault. At both trials the cop lied through his teeth. Told different stories each time. Civil trial held; decision pending.
Posted by Thomas J. Hillgardner on May 31st, 2010.
You Rock Justin! I feel for the cops but that is our rights and you did a good job of supporting our rights. Bravo!
Posted by Scott on June 8th, 2010.
What happened to you Justin…? You throw the constitution around and words like freedom so loosely because you have no idea what they cost. I often wonder what would have happened if we never moved away. I love you little brother and always will even if we were only best friends up til 5th grade but it breaks my heart to see what you’ve become. It’s sad to see how much support you are getting from people. Yeah there’s lots you can blame the government for but Justin he just wanted to see your ID. You wanted to show that your intelligent and that you have rights. What I see in that video is a kid who’s full or pride and arrogance.I see the same thing I always saw and that’s a kid who is wicked smart and never knew how to apply it correctly. But Justin please stop talking about freedom and the constitution as if you had a clue as to what it cost to keep those freedoms or to have penned that document. You make posters and you give speeches but you don’t put your butt on the line. You’re not as much a freedom fighter as you think friend. I don’t care about these people or these comments or your “causes” but I do care about you dude and the officer was right…you’re on a bad path man and you gotta get off it. See ya bud.
Posted by An Old Friend on June 9th, 2010.
…..who? Billy? haha… If it is you, email me at justin@justinholmes.com and we’ll talk.
I assure you: I do not take freedom, liberty, the constitution, or any of “my causes,” as you put it, lightly.
Posted by Justin on June 9th, 2010.
Justin Holmes, you are a role model for me. To successfully stand up to a police stop this way took great presence of mind and guts. Documenting it on this video does a lot to help educate and give hope to other Americans that we can still exercise our natural right to be free of arbitrary search and stand up to questioning.
However! You got lucky here, due to the relatively relaxed policies of the local police department. The cop stopped you on a reasonable suspicion based on the mystery noise he thought he heard. At that point he could have frisked you and found the weed. In NY State that weed possession is only a ticket but it does allow him to demand positive ID to check you for warrants and ensure you are properly ticketed.
I think these small town cops were being more moderate and less authoritarian than what you would see in New York City, where I live. Here, saying “No” to a police request for ID will get you thoroughly frisked for sure. Then you may have the grounds for a lawsuit but then again depending on what you have on you, you may be heading for jail. Carrying ID and showing it on request is more likely to keep you from being charged, if in fact you are carrying contraband.
Posted by brian on June 16th, 2010.
You were doing great! What assholes!
Didn’t you want to make a complaint?
Posted by Anna on July 9th, 2010.
I am not even a cop. If someone talked to me in the smug, condescending and confrontational way that you approached the conversation with this officer, I would have lost it in the first few minutes. Why these officers engaged in conversation with you, and why they remained so civil is beyond me. I would have cuffed you and stuffed you. These officers demonstrated coolness and level-headedness far beyond what would be expected from any human beings. It is obvious to anyone, except a punk, that you were trying to create conflict. P.S.: Skating on a road at night is dangerous and it is also ignorant. (And the unsuspecting driver who hits your ignorant ass is always blamed, even though you guys race through intersections and skate in travel lanes leaving us no possible way to avoid you except to hope that you saw us. And most of you morons wear dark clothing) Don’t do it in my town or I will call the police.
Posted by Don Corman on July 26th, 2010.
Why are all of you guys telling him to file a lawsuit against the police? They did absolutely nothing wrong. He was rollerskating in the middle of the road at 1:00AM. That’s not exactly normal. I would see that as suspicious too. Yes, he wasn’t doing anything “wrong” per say, but the police have to watch out for anything out of the ordinary…and someone rollerblading at 1:00AM is not exactly something you see all of the time.
Stop being a self-righteous asshole and just cooperate. You would’ve made everyone’s night (including your own) a lot easier if you just showed them your ID. They would have probably let you go on your merry little way rollerskating to wherever the hell you were going that late.
I’m all for standing up for my rights, but sometimes you just have to let the police do their job. Yes, I will admit that the female officer asking you who you were going to vote for was irrelevant and unnecessary, but the rest of what they were saying was completely valid and reasonable.
Not to mention, throughout the whole thing you have this snobby attitude acting like you’re better/smarter than they are. You keep saying you don’t mean to be disrespectful, but the tone of your voice says otherwise.
People like you create problems where no such problem exists and try to make it out to be some giant conspiracy-type issue. You’re probably one of those people that sets trash cans on fire and breaks windows at the G20. You give cops a hard time just so you can look like the you have the upper-hand, when really, you’re smartass remarks are going to have you put in jail one day. In my opinion, the cops weren’t harsh enough on you. I’m extremely surprised that you weren’t arrested or fined for not cooperating with them.
People need to stop trying to sue for everything–especially when they’re the ones at fault.
Posted by Arianna on August 1st, 2010.
Arianna is a complete retard… Arianna I bet your the type of person who says global warming doesn’t exist and that the earth is only 6000yrs old. You’re probably one of those people that bombs abortion clinics and hates all immigrants. It’s people like you that allow our freedoms to be taken away!
It’s spineless fools like you that have allowed power-tripping cops like this to have egos so big that common sense no longer pertains to them. Well done Justin! It’s breathtaking to see these utter fools send messages to you like “It would have been so much easier for you to just show your I.D.”… IDIOTS! He broke NO LAWS! They had NO reason to stop him therefore he had no reason to show his I.D. Which means THAT COP wasted his time and OUR MONEY!! Things could have gone a lot smoother if officer chip on his shoulder would have recognized how out of place he was and simply moved along. His job is to spot and stop people BREAKING the law, NOT stopping people that he personally finds suspicious but yet they are doing nothing wrong. These cops were ALL completely out of line and if they’re still behaving like this I hope someone takes them to court and gets their asses fired. Maybe teach the other power tripping cops a lesson about our civil rights… Bravo Justin!
Posted by Rick on August 14th, 2010.
I think you had a right to do what you did but at the same time they were extremely patient with you. And after a while you just start looking like an ass.
Posted by Jillian on August 16th, 2010.
actually the port dickinson cops wasted their own time harassing a person because they were flat out bored and probably having existential questions about becoming a police officer and all the prestige that comes with it yet not feeling like they live up to it sitting around pulling over people going 31 in a 30mph zone all day. Basically they are border patrol keeping the binghamton and port dickinson division a line that you don’t want to cross if you’re up to no good (see end of video “you’re not from here just get out”) so they can go back to having a quiet little cove and feel important having the title of police while being nothing more than security at a classy gated community.
Posted by Ian on August 31st, 2010.
Justin, you are an idiot!
Posted by Lars Hansen on October 8th, 2010.
Hey Justin,
We are probably 180◦ apart philosophically and politically, but thanks for posting this. There is definitely common ground between us on the Constitutionality of this stop.
For future reference, you might not want to be so chatty with the cops though. Remember, cops are paid to assume guilt first and phish for information. While you were good at diverting the conversation, you cut it close a few times.
Have a good one – and keep up the fight for liberties.
Posted by Rex Moncrief on October 11th, 2010.
Justin. you are truly amazing. i was in a similar situation in albany and being only 16 years old naively gave up my constitutional rights which led to my arrest and probation. I know alot of people are going to say that the constitution is not meant to protect criminals. It is though. Not specifically. Its meant to protect everyone in the country. Murderer, drug user, or just a law abiding citizen and any in between. If i had asserted my rights as you did I am almost positive i would not have been arrested for my possesion of under an ounce (barely) of marijuana. which was a UPM which is not a misdemeanor but just a violation. i was however arrested for the violation and then my persons further searched to reveal possesion of a pocket knife which to my knowledge is not illegal but i was also charged with criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth.
i digress, im rambling but this video has truly educated and enriched my person and i dont know how to thank you for doing what most people only dream of doing which is standing up to authority.
Im also curious as to if you still attend a university in the state. I go to Suny Plattsburgh and would love to meet up with you and have positive and constructive dialouge as to this situation and many others.
i’ll check future comments and see if youd be interested in that kind of situation and we can figure out how to contact eachother seeing as im not comfortable posting an email address
Thank you for representing the ideals of the founding fathers and this country as a whole,
Bobby
Posted by Bobby on November 9th, 2010.
Good for you.
I just spent Friday 11/19 night in county jail for refusing to produce my ID in small village in NYS. When I told the officers I had a right to deny “showing my Papers”, I was placed under arrest and taken back to the station while they discussed what to charge me with. They decided on disorderly conduct and set my bail at $750.00; a rather hefty sum for a violation considering I’m not a flight risk.
I am no civil rights crusader, but I felt it was important to take a stand. I’m an avid sailor, and my sailing experiences are becoming less enjoyable because of all the boardings from various agencies on the Hudson River to “check my papers”. I have yet to be found out of compliance with any regulation, yet they continue to board me and many others. This was the straw.
While I couldn’t cite any statute or relevant case law, they insisted that I had no right to refuse. If that is true, why wasn’t I charged under a statute specifically pertinent to that assertion? While the whole situation was rather traumatic for me, I’m proud that I stood my ground.
I already have representation and my attorney assures me the case will be dismissed…He has suggested that I sue; something I shall carefully consider as I am already afraid of repercussions from the local Gestapo. They seemed to have taken my challenge personally.
Your video gives me further courage to fight this. I’m glad I came across it.
N.B. I am not anti-police.
Posted by Tom on November 22nd, 2010.
Justin,
Thanks for the video. New York State does have a “stop and identify” law. Essentially by law you must show ID to the police if they request it. Technically they must have reasonable suspicion of illegal activity to request ID. We all know that “reasonable suspicion” can be a very gray area. Also there is no law requiring anyone to carry ID except when driving or flying. Keep up the fight for freedom and liberty!
Ron Paul 2012!
Posted by Kevin on December 22nd, 2010.
Kevin, I appreciate the comment, but you are not correct about New York State law. In fact this has already been hashed out in the comments above.
So, now, in order to be sure that my readers are properly informed, I must remind:
YOU ARE NOT REQUIRED TO SHOW IDENTIFICATION TO POLICE IN NEW YORK STATE ON NORMAL PUBLIC PROPERTY. (Campuses and other government institutions are permitted to create their own rules on this matter).
THE CONTROLLING LAW IS VERY, VERY CLEAR ON THIS, PLEASE READ:
http://codes.lp.findlaw.com/nycode/CPL/TWO/H/140/140.50
Posted by Justin on December 22nd, 2010.
Man, This is the best!! You ***** ROCK!
Posted by Rob Rod on March 25th, 2011.
Justin,
You won…congratulations. You used the “letter of the law” not against the Stasi, but to a LEO who, seeing you skating in the road at 1 AM when that can be consider odd by a prudent man, probably stopped you to first make sure you were not a danger to yourself. NOTE: You are an admitted a pot head and could have been stoned.
So you tied up three officers, and admittedly he probably knew there was no code from the git-go but wanted to see who you were. Perhaps you might recall some rather large and heinous incidents were committed after officers who stopped people in recent years when seeing something didn’t look right, but didn’t know their intentions just moments later. I think Timothy McVeigh was one of them.
So using that “letter of the law”, you persevered over what, not providing at first your name then an ID to an officer who, if void from the community for a week, would have it see anarchy? Maybe you need to consider Common Law and Common Sense. There is no slippery slope here. Someone is acting foolishly (you) and if he finds out 15 minutes later a robbery/murder takes place, the best suspects are those who were out-and-about and doing something stupid like being a target for the front of a hood as a driver might have .07 blood alcohol, not expect to see anything but a vehicle at 1 AM, and kill you. Yes, he should have ascertained your identity for the safety of yourself and the community. All you did was have the next guy who pulls a stunt like this probably be detained in a cell overnight rather than deal with a common courtesy. You are playing the martyr, the victim, and the activist for the Constitution here when a rash of people pulling this stunt will likely have an ID ordinance enacted as well as begin to poison citizen-LEO relations. And please don’t try quoting Ben Franklin and liberty. I grew up in NYC, am generally familiar with your area, and had a father as an NYPD detective as well as three uncles as cops. A number of their best friends in life were guys a few years younger who they could have arrested, but gave them a chance to straighten their lives out. This cop might have been your best friend, especially if you had been stoned and near home, and despite your claims to the contrary, you were very disrespectful. He had a long shift and needed your, “I know my rights” crap like a 2nd mortgage. You decided to attempt to lecture the officers on the letter of the law as if they were planting wires in your home and reading your e-mail. Your obituary and video of the service could have been on the web instead of this video from what you were engaged in, and you know it. A friend of mine was killed in a head-on by a kid texting a month ago. You could have looked like a fly on a windshield, and that is probably what the officer was going to tell you until you “Lawyered-up”, as the saying goes.
Try reading what someone who knew what true oppression said about where we were headed as a nation due to misuse of the law and confusing following it to its letter with morality. But I suspect you wanted to leave as you had contraband on your person and that video ran in-case a search was problematic.
You just proved long-time gulag resident Solzhenitsyn’s point beautifully. Common sense and sanity be damned, why you had “THE LAW” behind you.
***********************************************
People in the West have acquired considerable skill in using, interpreting and manipulating law, even though laws tend to be too complicated for an average person to understand without the help of an expert. Any conflict is solved according to the letter of the law and this is considered to be the supreme solution. If one is right from a legal point of view, nothing more is required, nobody may mention that one could still not be entirely right, and urge self-restraint, a willingness to renounce such legal rights, sacrifice and selfless risk: it would sound simply absurd. One almost never sees voluntary self-restraint. Everybody operates at the extreme limit of those legal frames. An oil company is legally blameless when it purchases an invention of a new type of energy in order to prevent its use. A food product manufacturer is legally blameless when he poisons his produce to make it last longer: after all, people are free not to buy it.
I have spent all my life under a communist regime and I will tell you that a society without any objective legal scale is a terrible one indeed. But a society with no other scale but the legal one is not quite worthy of man either. A society which is based on the letter of the law and never reaches any higher is taking very scarce advantage of the high level of human possibilities. The letter of the law is too cold and formal to have a beneficial influence on society. Whenever the tissue of life is woven of legalistic relations, there is an atmosphere of moral mediocrity, paralyzing man’s noblest impulses.
And it will be simply impossible to stand through the trials of this threatening century with only the support of a legalistic structure.
(just a portion on the law in his address to Harvard, 1978)
—————————————————
Justin, may you one day become half as smart as you think you are! I’m in NC now for 10 years, I carry a gun at all times, I have taken a lot of combat styled training, and shoot competitions with a number of cops who are all good guys who would walk through hell with gasoline cans to help people. I dare say that on average, I shoot far better than the average cop as he can’t afford to shoot as much and only a SWAT Team trains a lot. I have prevented two crimes by drawing my weapon. But “The Law” didn’t require me to. I just happened to be at a gas station that was about to be robbed as well as seeing a carjacking about to take place. What were my rights? To do nothing. What was my higher morality called to do? To take that training I have taken and dial my phone and show I had a weapon and was ready to intervene if necessary. That Thin Blue Line you hear of is thinner than you could imagine. In 99% of incidents you respect the officer and he’ll respect you. If you think he wasn’t respecting you, he could have let the judge sort it all out, as well as the marijuana in your pocket, by coming up with just about any reason to bring out a drug sniffing dog. When do cops start becoming belligerent and not caring about your rights? When they have had enough crap from the people who they have to take a bullet for. You were involved in a peculiar endeavor very late at night. Complying with a courtesy of knowing who he was dealing with was not too much to ask in return for when he has to respond to your call for assistance. It cuts both ways, not just yours, “Mr. Activist”.
Posted by Mike Walsh on March 26th, 2011.
Rick wrote: “Arianna is a complete retard… Arianna I bet your the type of person who says global warming doesn’t exist and that the earth is only 6000yrs old.”
Hey Rick, global warming, as it is being portrayed as this emergency such that carbon dioxide was deemed a pollutant by the SC, does not exist. 50 years ago they thought the earth might be cooling and enough evidence suggest that the gulf stream might be cooling which would leave England a block of ice in 75-100 years.
And a nice bigoted religious comment there too that was a non-sequitur, as well as the “retarded” insult.
I’m probably a generation older than you. It’s a damn pity you have been duped and brainwashed. You are part of “their” matrix and you don’t even know it. The future of your generation is doomed as you refuse to open your eyes. The situation was simple here. Or as Freud said, “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar”.
Posted by Mike Walsh on March 26th, 2011.
howdy cool blog, I found your website as I was doing some research how to develop my word wide web log. I was just now enquiring which spam pluggin you employ for comments because WE get lots on great site.
Posted by bail bonds hollywood on March 28th, 2011.
Take two average law abiding citizens and put them on that same road. One (we’ll call Justin) rollerblading at 1AM with “no markers” as the officer stated. (I’m an avid runner and always know to wear a reflexive vest, head lamp, and tail lamp when out at night). The second person we’ll call Kevin, and he’s driving home at 1AM after a day at work. Kevin comes up on Justin and because he’s in the middle of the lane and difficult to spot, Kevin slams on his brakes in his nice F150 and swerves into oncoming traffic, slamming into me, my wife, and our 3 children in our Ford Focus.
What you were doing was irresponsible and stupid. Although at the time it might have seemed like a good idea. With this in mind I think the officers should have arrested you for posing a hazard to the community. They definitely should have tested you for any kind of substance that would have lead to your amazing lapse in judgement. Of course you would have refused any testing so they would’ve had to keep you in jail overnight so you can sleep it off. When you argue that there were drugs in your system at the time of your arrest there would be no way to prove it either way. For the safety of the community they should have arrested you.
Another option here would have been to further extend you some courtesy. Simply give you a ride home, seeing as how allowing you to continue rollerblading would be a danger to yourself and those around you. It would be ridiculous to allow you to walk down that road at 1AM barefoot. Perhaps a ride to the police station where someone could come and pick you up or identify you. Win win right.
New York State Law
Title VII. Article 34: Operation of bicycle and play devices
Section 1234. If there is a bike/skate lane, you must use it. If not, you must skate as far to the right side of the street as possible so as to not interfere with traffic…(you were in the middle of the lane so it’s against the law) we “are” being overly dramatic and precise about his right.
Section 1238. Any child under 14 must wear a helmet when skating. This is a $50 offense, the ticket being issued to the skater’s parent/guardian. When skating at night, you must wear a jacket or other clothing with reflective material. (No reflective material, Law breaker)
This all being said Sir I admire you for standing up for your rights. I really enjoyed the video. I served in the Marine Corps to be sure that this country remains free and to protect your freedom to stand up for your rights.
Semper Fi
Posted by ismael on April 13th, 2011.
Thanks for the comment. I can’t believe this is still generating discussion three years later!
Just to clarify my skating protocol: I am a very safety-conscious skater, as I have pointed out. I have organized long skating journeys and cleared traffic plans with municipal and country authorities.
Three notes:
I was in fact wearing a bright-colored jacket with a strip of reflective tape on the back – definitely legal under NYS V&T law.
We do normally skate far to the right, but during the descent down hills during which we achieve traffic-level speeds, we move to the center of the right-hand lane, which is legal under NYS V&T law.
The area in question is a very well-lit village. I grew up there and had skated there just about every night for many years (even in the winter). The chances of my being less the fully visible are basically zero.
Posted by Justin on April 13th, 2011.
Hello Justin,
I feel that what you are doing is quite couraeous and the police are completely ignorant, overbearing and inappropriate. They are perfect examples of what is wrong with all police forces in my opinion. The government gives them a badge and a gun and then lets them loose on the public. As a criminal defense lawyer for 37 years in NY, I am ashamed of them. The woman is completely wrong. The nature of their job is NOT to stop everyone and ask for their name and ID. They have no right to ask for such things without probable cause.
You did a very courageous thing to videtape the encounter. I wish there were more of your type doing exactly what you did. The police need to be challenged more, especially the jerky guy who was an obvious overbearing cop. He lost his patience at some point and acted like a complete jerk by threatening you.
I admire your courage in standing up to him. He needs many more people to challenge him. In fact, he needs to be sued and haul him into court for civil rights violations. I’m amazed that he allowed you to videotape the encounter and didn’t steal or destroy your camera as I’ve seen happen in other cases.
The dopey bastard needs to be given a crash course on the laws of NY state.
Good luck in the future. Keep up the good work. You’re doing exactly the right thing and they are not. I also think they should be sued by you using the videotape as evidence. You were detained improperly and illegally under the auspices of being “uncooperative” and that’s not appropriate under the law.
Posted by Ted Robinson on May 21st, 2011.
DUDE! You are the man! I wish I could talk like that to police. I know what I am supposed to say but when it comes down to it I can’t think of the right things to say because I get too nervous.
I have been harassed so many times by police (I live in Bronx, NY) and every time they violate my rights.
But you on the other hand, I have never seen anyone keep their cool like that. I mean there were times were I was just waiting for him to reach for the cuffs but you kept reasoning with him and protecting your rights to the very last minute. I cant say this enough, you are fucking amazing.
Do you have any suggestions on what to do/say when a police officer just pounces out of a vehicle and tells you to put your hands behind your back and immediately goes into your pockets (they do this very often here) without consent or probable cause?
Posted by Henry R. on May 22nd, 2011.
@i dont have to
You’re a police officer? How in the world were you able to pass a GED exam with an intellect of a potato? NY law clearly states that a citizen in public property does not have to display ID unless the officer has reasonable suspicion of a crime.
You just made a rant about how people should show their ID even if they are not under suspicion of a crime, so you are stating that you do not agree with this specific law, therefore you do not “like” it. And then you say “if you dont like the laws then get the fuck out of the country” But… You just said you do not like the very law we are speaking of and instead of you getting out of the country, Justin (Who completely agrees with what the law states) should get the fuck out? HUH? WTF? Where is your logic?
Please remove yourself not only from the U.S. but anywhere there is a civilized society. You would be better off in a jungle where you will find other unsophisticated primates such as yourself.
Posted by This cop's IQ is below 0 on May 22nd, 2011.
Justin,
Regardless of any ordinance, I believe you when you say there really isn’t a town ordinance, it is against NYS law to ride down the middle of the road. Not sure where you get your information, but according to V & T law, all people on bikes, skateboards, etc… must stay to the right. Therefore, you were breaking the law. That is the law. You can look it up on any website. Ordinance or not, you were breaking the law.
The problem I have is your blind sweeping judgement against law enforcement in general. Yes, many are power hungry and corrupt. However, many many more are not. It would be just as wrong to say that all liberals, republicans, radicals, hippies, etc, act a certain way. It is just not the case. While I feel your overall cause and purpose is correct (protecting our rights, against big government for their incorrect ways), I think you are just taking the constitution and laws and twisting them to try to fit your own agenda, and especially in this case, being overly dramatic to get people riled up and to join on the bandwagon of “All police are bad, down with the police, etc”. Our police need to follow the laws, I agree with this. However, if the overall population start to feel as though they don’t have to follow rules or police officers.. our society is going to become a very scary place.
Freedom of speech is guaranteed and protected. However, just because something is a law and protected, does not mean it is always right. Everyone has the freedom of speech, yet personal decency and responsibility should come in to play. Just like those people from the Westboro Church who protest funerals. They have the RIGHT to do it, it is protected. However is it right? Is it the humane and just thing to do? Absolutely not. It is also our right to sit on a park bench or sit on a bench waiting for a bus. However, if an elderly person comes along, it is the RIGHT thing to do to offer the seat. Do you have to? No. It is your RIGHT. However, it isn’t always the right thing to do. I think many of what you say rings true, and there are many people who use their job titles in an incorrect manner. Many, however, DO NOT. That was part of this guys job. You were riding in the middle of the road at night, he did what he was SUPPOSED to do. If he started beating you or something, that would be different. He was asking you questions. Come on. In this case, you did break the law. The cop should have known that law, and stated that clearly and right away. I think to make your message more powerful (and to not look like you just hate cops and any authority), you should have handled it very differently.
Posted by Adam McMahon on June 19th, 2011.
To the people posting on this video who are so appalled by cops and their behaviors. Cops are humans. Most of the time, if you treat a cop with respect, they treat you the same. However, if you approach a cop with an attitude and are disrespectful, most of the time they act the same. I’m not saying you can’t “question” what is going on. However, I see so many people who get pulled over for speeding, or cell phones, and FREAK out on the cops, say they didn’t do it, are incredibly rude, and so on. Then they get so offended when the cop is rude back to them, and writes them a ticket. Cops are people too. Dealing with other people is not easy. I work at a bank, and dealing with people all day long, I understand that. Cops mostly deal with the trash of society. Anytime I see (or have heard from friends) of a cop being a jerk, the person they were dealing with was a complete jerk. I understand questioning and asserting your rights, but if you did something wrong, it is the cops right and duty to do something about it. Cops have a job, too. Most of the time, they are just doing what they are supposed to. Just because a cop does their job, doesn’t make them bad. (of course, some are bad.. and I completely understand that. that is the minority, though).
Posted by Sarah Decoya on June 19th, 2011.
Did this go any further?
Posted by Adam on July 17th, 2011.
I find it funny that your website asks for my name and email after watching this video haha. No offence but I think you lucked out with smaller town cops because when I run into some of the more “hardened” cops here in NY they aren’t as plyable as these officers.
Posted by Anon on August 2nd, 2011.
Well first off, the police officer failed to state the number of the village ordinance. He also failed to state whether or not it was against the law to skate on the side walk. He also continuously told you to stop speaking which goes against freedom of speech. Good job Justin! You did swell lol.
Posted by Emily Rodriguez on September 23rd, 2011.
thank you so much man by making this video you have help me a lot in dealing with the police i am a young black male and i get stop by the cop a lot for no reason at all thank you so much and Ron Paul 2012
Posted by Jhamar Walters on March 1st, 2012.
The cop was wrong on many things but-Justin you come off as kind of a wise ass — its a draw.
Posted by Horace on March 20th, 2012.
I didn’t read all the comments, and am 1/2 way through the video and I already have some comments about the behavior of the officers. They concluded that it is their job to “know” where people were and where they are going in order to maintain that they are not committing crimes. Well, they will need a HELL of a lot more officers to keep track of EVERYONE’s comings and goings to make sure we are not ALL breaking laws. I have had my share of police harrassment, arrests and abuse, and I KNOW the majority of us are being “surveilled”. There is no need to harrass us as to where we were, where we are going, what crimes we may or may not commit, and who we are voting for. If they REALLY think they need to know, they should contact the FBI and DHS. Thanks for being a voice for us!
Posted by Jennie on April 5th, 2012.
I’ve decided after viewing more of the vid and reading some of the comments that a lot of these people don’t seem to understand the point of the whole posting of it. When you lie down your rights (you know, showing ID after the POLICE – who are supposed to be doing their jobs by helping uphold the law – LIE and say it’s the law and that you have to show ID, or that it is against the law for you to vid them) for this instance, where do we draw the line? When do we stop lying down to make it “safe”. They have now made it ok to strip search someone on a traffic violation. I know, they have been doing this for years, now it’s perfectly acceptable. Those who make these laws, and decide they are accaptable are also subjecting themselves, and those they love, to the same laws, violations, restrictions and abuses. Remember that. Imagine your grandmother, daughter, son, uncle, being pulled at a random traffic stop, being found WRONGFULLY guilty of something, having to submit to a degrading strip search, fingerprinted and put into a system, and never be found guilty of committing a crime.
Posted by Jennie on April 5th, 2012.
Since you live in the village, have you encountered this officer subsequently. How did that go?
Posted by Jack on April 11th, 2012.
Interesting. I think a critical point that many are here missing is that Justin was in FULL compliance with the law. Would we think it okay for the officer to require him to recite from memory the entirety of War and Peace? No, because that is an arbitrary demand. As there was no existing statute requiring him to produce ID, the demand becomes equally arbitrary. It may be inconvenient, yes, but Justin is harming nobody. He is not forcing the officers to stand there making demands without the force of law, they are choosing to do so of their own accord. Apparently, lawmakers agree- there is no statute requiring a pedestrian to carry identification, making a requirement to produce one upon request a moot point. I applaud your efforts, Justin (though I know it has been a couple of years since this video), and I encourage you to keep intelligently and calmly exercising your rights.
Posted by Joseph on April 11th, 2012.
Many other’s comments inspired me to leave my own.
I think what bothers me here, is that you can tell the original detaining officer wanted to play “officer hard-ass”. While Justin may come off as a smart-ass, the officer could have been above-the-fray and calmly explained that he would like to see ID to verify Justin is who he says he is, and that he has no outstanding warrants for arrest. If Justin refused, then that’s the end of the story. The other off-screen officer makes the comment, “Then why do you have a driver’s license?” The correct response is, “For the privilege to drive a motor vehicle upon the roadways.” It is not required to be carried when you are not operating a motor vehicle. Neither is state issued ID. When Justin refused to display ID, whether it annoyed him or not, the officer had no reasonable suspicion to detain Justin and should not have taken Justin’s bait.
The real problem is, when it comes down to it, the officers happened upon a smart-ass. Then, since they didn’t like a smart-ass, they wanted to show him that they would “win”. Notice what the original officer explicitly said, “We’ll win”. Win what, exactly? That you identified him without him showing you ID? Good Job! You just might make detective someday (you know, that’s how they solve REAL crimes…because regular criminal suspects don’t exactly provide ID either). No, what he was trying to show Justin was that he was “the boss” or “the authority”. This is what small men/women do when they believe they have a little power and want to exert it over others in some manner. Our country’s founders knew this intimately, and explicitly restrained this type of behavior and enshrined it in our Constitution.
Lastly, the real reason the encounter lasted so long was not because Justin was a smart-ass. It was because the officer wanted to show the smart-ass who was boss, which was just as immature. A mature officer would see through the smart-ass routine. A smart officer would just calmly get his full name (which he DOES have to provide) and record the encounter in the log for future record and tell him to get lost. That encounter would probably take all of 5 minutes. Since it was the officer who decided Justin was detained, it was the OFFICER who determined the length of the encounter. If the officer was sick of listening to Justin’s diatribe, he should have sent him on his way and not detain him and listen to him preach. (I think the officer finally realizes this when you see him abruptly change his attitude and sends Justin packing without further explanation).
Fortunately, there ARE more reasonable and mature officers out there who can tell the difference between a smart-ass with a camera, and REAL dangerous criminals. Justin was just unlucky enough to encounter the minority who represent the “Barney Fife” mentality. One can only hope the officers watch this and come to realize just how immature they acted, and looked, by trying to show Justin who was boss.
Posted by dave on April 12th, 2012.
great job handling those guys!! you walked a fine line there.
I had almost the same situation yesterday, but only got asked my name in Troy NY.
Question: If I had been asked for ID, while walking, (and not breaking ANY laws or ordinances) and refused politley.
whats to stop the cop from searching me, taking the wallet out, and looking at my drivers license?
Posted by Mark on April 26th, 2012.